Episode 338: Owen McGirr: Software Developer, Advocate, and Adaptive Switch User
This week, Chris interviews Owen McGirr (@enaboapps), a software developer who is a passionate advocate for accessibility in technology! Living with cerebral palsy and using adaptive switches himself, Owen has dedicated his career to creating tools that empower people with disabilities. His innovations include apps like Switchify, which allows users to control Android devices with adaptive switches, and SayIt, an AAC app tailored for effective communication. Through his open-source projects and relentless drive, Owen is transforming technology to be more inclusive and empowering for all!
Before the interview, Chris and Rachel discuss why switches can be an overlooked option for AAC users with access issues. They stress the need for professionals to consider a variety of access methods, including switches, to ensure families are aware of all available options!
Key Ideas This Week:
Importance of Backup Systems: Rachel advocates for having a backup communication system, such as partner-assisted scanning, especially for users of eye tracking. She explains that eye tracking can be fatiguing, and having alternative methods ensures reliable communication.
The Role of AI in Development: Owen highlighted how generative AI plays a significant role in his work, aiding tasks like coding, debugging, and brainstorming. However, he emphasized that AI serves as a supportive tool requiring human oversight to ensure accuracy and functionality.
Empowerment Through Personalization: Owen’s journey with AAC devices underscores the importance of personalized technology. From starting with basic tools to creating solutions that suit his needs, he advocates for user autonomy in choosing the best tools and methods to empower users to communicate and interact with technology on their own terms.
Links from This Week’s Episode:
Transcript of the Episode
Please Note: This transcript was generated using speech recognition & AI tools; it may contain some grammatical and/or spelling errors.
00:00:08 Rachel Madel
Welcome to Talking With Tech. I'm your host, Rachel Madel, joined as always by Chris Bugaj. Hey, Chris.
00:00:13 Chris Bugaj
Hey. What's going on, Rachel?
00:00:14 Rachel Madel
Not much. What you got for me this week?
00:00:16 Chris Bugaj
Well, today's interview is with Owen McGirr. And Owen McGirr is a Switch user who developed an app called Switchify. At the time of the recording, Switchify was completely free, and there's still a free version. Since then, he's released, like a paid version that is a couple bucks, I think, in the App Store. Which leads me to what I want to talk about today in our banter is also about switch use. And so we have something in our neck of the woods called the Academies of Loudoun. So there it doesn't. These are high school students that go to a specific building for some specific classes, and they usually come from all the different high schools in the area. Different, you know, students in the area go to the academies maybe two or three days a week. My son Tucker went to the academies for veterinary science class when he was a senior. And there's a robotics team for that school. And they have a, you know, a makers club. And there's actually a number of schools. In our area where the. The high school seniors have reached out saying, or not just seniors, but maybe some sort of makers club saying they'd like to make school switches or some sort of assistive technology. And, you know, oftentimes they'd reach out because they want to make an adapted hand or something. And it's like, well, yeah, but we don't know a lot of people that are missing a hand and would want a hand made by high school students. So, yes, I mean, if you want to learn something, sure. But we have other practical things that we would invite you to make, like switches. And because switches, you know, can be a little expensive depending on where you're getting them from, the price point has come way, way, way down because there are certain kits you can get that are like under 100 bucks. So you can get a number of switches. But still, if you could get students to learn how to make them and they were using their own school funds for the filament that they're using, the PLA 3D printed filament and a, couple, you know, wires with, you know, cords and stuff like that, then the price point goes down even more significantly and kids learn how to make them, you know, and they're actually doing something meaningful for their time. A challenge over the years has been creating switches. Has often been something like, I know when I first started in assistive technology. We were making our own switches, so we would, like, just kind of learn how to do it, and we run classes on it. And the challenge was always making them cool. Meaning we could make a switch out of a CD case, you know, and some scraps of copper and some wires that we dumpster dive for, whatever, I don't know. And. Or we got from Radio Shack for a few bucks, and it was fine. We could do it, and we learned how to do it, and they would be functional. They would work. So you could hit the switch to move through, let's say, you know, you know, put it into a environmental control unit that could turn on and off a light, you know, or if we hit it to a switch interface that goes to a computer, it could control, like a PowerPoint. So you could slide, you know, like a Tar Heel reader, which is now Monarch reader. You know, you could hit the switch to move forward or backward. But they were all sort of. If they. Unless they were purchased commercially, they looked kind of janky, you know. And so the idea was, with these kids, when we were like, okay, you want to make switches, part of the rubric of whatever you make is they need to look awesome, you know, like, they need to look like something would, like, wow, how come they get to use that? You know, and maybe someone's looks different or personalized because they're a big Chicago Bears fan. So it's made in the emblem of the Chicago Bears helmet or something, you know, like. Or maybe it's your. The switch has something to do with what you're going to control, you know, like, maybe it looks like a light bulb because it's controlling a light or something like that. Right? But make it look sweet, you know, because kids deserve to have, you know, their stuff look awesome, you know, and so that was an awesome challenge for kids, and they've really stepped up to it. We've had a number of schools now that have made switches, you know, in this concept of iterative design. So, you know, hey, we made some. And then we would pair them with classroom teachers in. In programs where students are using switches, and the speech therapists and occupational therapists and physical therapists that might be working with those kids and say, okay, we're going to actually send you these. So first, the kids in the programs that are building the switches would contact the kids in the classrooms that would be using the switches and the professionals in those classrooms and then ask them a bunch of design questions, and then they'd go off and they create Something and design something. And then they'd send a prototype to that classroom to get feedback and say, okay, these are the things we like and these are the things you could improve on. And then, and then send it back and then they make the, you know, the next version. So we call that iterative design. And it has just been this awesome, rewarding thing where everybody benefits. Like, you're making stuff that as meaningful, it's actually being used. It's a lower cost point for the school district. And, and it's skills that you'll learn and you'll use well beyond, you know, because you're also talking about skills about listening to your client and making changes based on what your client needs. So all, all around really good stuff. So I don't know, any thoughts on, on switch making and have you had any, like, experience around that?
00:06:13 Rachel Madel
No, I actually haven't had any experience, believe it or not. And I feel like, you know, there's kind of all these things that happen at the assistive technology conferences that we go to, and I'm always like, I should really dive into that world and I'm intimidated. I'm intimidated, Chris.
00:06:30 Chris Bugaj
Well, I have to tell you that it's been a big change for me in that, in the, in the, in many years in my past, I'd be the one that'd be wanting to make the switch, right? Like, I'd want to. Like I said, I was the one. Me and a handful of people were. Teaching classes on how to make switches. That meant I had to make the switch and I had to learn how to do it. And then, you know, I like to geek out on 3D printing. And so I want to say, okay, what's the, you know, what's the file and how does that work and what's the size and how do I measure it and what's the right filament and then how do I piece it all together? And really I've had to learn to take a back seat to become more of the, the connector, if you'll pardon the pun, between the kids that are making these and the adults and other kids who are going to be using them, you know, and I just become this liaison between the two where I do want to get in and get my hands dirty and start to. You get the soldering gun out or whatever. And I have to like, no, Chris. That'S not your role anymore. You can go and you can watch and you can celebrate what your job is as connecting people together.
00:07:43 Rachel Madel
I also love this idea of just creating really organic Opportunities for learning and growth that are actually useful. I just, just really get so frustrated. Actually, believe it or not, right before this recording, I was on another call and it was talking about literacy and it just so unmotivating this kind of activity that a teacher was kind of presenting. And I just kept thinking like, this isn't really useful. Like, why aren't we teaching things in a way that's embedded into some type of very useful motivating situation that will happen in, in. In, you know, a student's real life and there's real world implications and you know, there's a, at the end of that kind of path of learning, there's something that, that we can have and use in our everyday world. Because I feel like everything happens such in a silo and we don't have always those opportunities, but as educators we can design them. Like, we can be the ones who come in and say, like, hey, let's do it this way. And it sounds like that's kind of exactly how you guided this group of students, saying like, okay, like, yes, but like, let's think about something that's actually useful and things we actually need. And I feel like when you're teaching, you know, kids at a young age how to fulfill a need, you're teaching them so much more than the actual skill.
00:09:16 Chris Bugaj
Right.
00:09:16 Rachel Madel
It's like these are the, the fundamental basics of building a business of, you know, working alongside of your client and understanding their needs and having strong communication skills back and forth. And there's so many things that kind of aren't embedded into something like that. So it's so much than the actual practice itself of creating a switch. It's so much more rich than that.
00:09:39 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, absolutely. I could not agree more. There's so many skills that come out of working on a project that is meaningful to other people because they're also not working in isolation. So they're learning how to collaborate with teammates. They're working how to create a budget and manage a budget and how much did it cost and how much is the next one going to cost and where to share these things that people would actually find them so other people wouldn't have to go through necessarily the same pitfall falls or, or negatives that they've had to go through, which again, there's some productive struggle. But the idea is there's so many things that you learn from doing a project that actually put some good into the actual world. You know, you're not just learning it for the sake of learning it, you're learning it for the sake of growth and change.
00:10:24 Rachel Madel
Yeah. And I think that also simultaneously you're teaching these students about individuals who use aac. Like, what is a switch? Why do we need it? Like, here are people that actually use switches. It's just like the inclusion that it fosters and promotes, I feel like, is also just this byproduct of, of this type of, of, you know, organized activity.
00:10:49 Chris Bugaj
Now here's another thing, just because it's going to come up in the interview that you're about to hear, and that is there seems to be a trend and Owen sort of brings it up in the interview, but let's talk about it right now, that there seems to be a trend that he's noticing, and I kind of notice it too, that when we're doing the feature matching process and we're thinking about access, there's often, well, if you're not using Direct select with your finger, then we're going to jump to eye gaze. And there's other, there's other modalities that are often maybe left out. And Owen was like, every time I go onto Facebook and I've seen him post on Facebook even before we did the, the interview, like, are people not using switches anymore? Are we not even considering them? It's like, yeah, man, maybe you got your onto something there. Is that. Why not? We should maybe always be considering switches, even if you're ruling it out, but put it on the list as maybe one of the top things to be thinking about is switch use, Direct select, eye gaze, head pointing, and any other access methodologies. I notice you light up when I said that. Are you noticing people sort of skipping switches as a consideration?
00:11:58 Rachel Madel
Oh, totally. And like, when families come to me, they're just like, we want eye gaze. And I'm like, well, let's talk about it like, because I think most people don't understand the complexities of eye tracking and all the things that have to go into being successful when you're using eye gaze and eye tracking. You know, and I mean, I think also what I've learned from listening to adult AAC users who have come on this podcast is that the systems can evolve over time and we should really, we should be the ones who are introducing all the different options to an individual so that they can be a part of the decision making process. And you know, if we just jumped and say, like, yes, eye tracking, let's go down this path. But we've never exposed students to, you know, head tracking, switch use, like anything like that, then we're really not Exposing both the individual themselves, but also the family to all the other potential options. And I think that that's something that, especially if you're responsible for AAC assessments and that process, doing your due diligence in that sense, I think becomes really important.
00:13:15 Chris Bugaj
That's certainly something I've learned over the last seven years of doing this podcast that Chris Bugaj of seven years ago wasn't really thinking about. I was thinking let's find someone's access methodology. And now I think about finding people's primary and secondary and tertiary because I've met so many people that flip flop and use different things based on the moment in time. Right. And that's definitely an evolution that I've gone through.
00:13:43 Rachel Madel
The other thing I'll share, which I think I've been in situations in my clinical work that perhaps are frustrating to families initially, is that even if we are going to go down the path of eye tracking and eye gaze, having some type of paper based or backup AAC system like partner assisted scanning is such a integral foundational skill to have. Because even when I have eye tracking students and I have one I'm thinking about in particular, and you know, he is really proficient at eye gaze, but there's times of his day, especially when he's at home where he is laying on the ground and living his best life life and his eye tracking system is, you know, mounted to his wheelchair. And so in that situation, like how does he communicate? And up until that family coming to my practice, like they didn't have another means of communication for him. And so it just becomes super important to establish something reliable that is consistent. You know, the other thing that makes me really prioritize partner assisted scanning for kids is that eye tracking is really fatiguing. And so at the end of the day, I oftentimes will see a lot of my students who use eye gaze, they, they're not really that chatty and it's because they're tired. And if we can have another communication system available that, you know, the family feels really well versed and practiced in. I'm just like a big advocate of the partner assisted scanning because I just think it's, it's always reliable, it's always there. If you can teach a student how to have some type of affirmative response and listen like it's all these skill sets that it takes to be successful with partner assisted scanning, but building that out at the same time as exploring switches and eye tracking and all of these kind of more high tech means of, of communication. I think is really important when you.
00:15:47 Chris Bugaj
Were saying it's really important to know, like have someone be able to have an affirmative response. Right. Is this what you. Is this what you're thinking? Or is this what you' thinking? That could be a switch. And so, without further ado, let's listen to my interview with Owen McGirr, talking all about switch use.
00:16:13 Rachel Madel
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00:16:58 Chris Bugaj
Welcome to Talking with Tech. My name is Chris Bugue, and today I have the great honor of talking to Owen McGirr. Right, Owen? Did I say it right? No, McGurr. No T at the end. Owen McGurr. Got it. Oh, and tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
00:17:21 Owen McGirr
Hey. I'm Owen McGurn, a software developer from Gonegal, Ireland, and I'm also a switch user living with cerebral Palsy. I've always been looking for ways to make technology work better for me and others with disabilities. That's how I got into creating apps like Seiyan, which helped people with speech difficulties communicate using pre programmed phrases, and Augie, an AAC app that took it a step further by being customizable. Now I'm working on Switchify, an Android app that lets users control their devices using adaptive switches. As a switch user myself, I know how important it is to have technology that adapts to you and makes life easier. My goal has always been to make tech more accessible and empowering for people with disabilities. It's all about giving people more independence and control over their devices.
00:18:15 Chris Bugaj
When it's fair to say you're a developer, right? I'm like you were. You write code. Yeah. Okay, so can we just talk about that for a second? Because I work in the state of Virginia and in Virginia. Virginia in the United States was the first state in the country to adopt computer science standards, which means in public education here, you have to teach it in the schools, right? In the same way you teach reading and Writing and arithmetic. You're meant to teach computer science. And there are standards that go from kindergarten all the way up. Right. And a lot. I think we can make the argument, at least in the States. I would imagine it's the same in Ireland. Is that. But I don't know for sure that, like, oh, we'll get to that eventually, maybe if we have time for students with disabilities. But computer science, we got to teach them how to be on the coffee cart and sell us coffee rather than. Right. And it's like, no, no. And reading too, right? Reading, like, oh, so we've been playing catch up with literacy and now I saw these computer science standards, like, no, we cannot get behind with computer science standards. Everyone. Computer science is for everyone. Right? So here you are, a developer who uses switches, who uses technology, uses aac. Can you give us a little about your journey of how you became a developer, like from the very beginning and all the detail as a way to be like, yes. Like, if we gave people enough time and the right support and the right technology, they could become a developer too. What's your story?
00:20:01 Owen McGirr
Sure. I got into tech largely out of necessity. As a switch user, I quickly realized that mainstream tools didn't meet my needs. Early on, I saw the potential of technology to break down barriers for people with disabilities. And that's what inspired me to dive into developing. I could see how creating the right tools could make a massive difference in terms of independence and quality of life. This realization motivated me to learn coding and start building solutions that could help not just myself, but many others facing similar challenges.
00:20:41 Chris Bugaj
Do you have more to say? It.
00:21:32 Owen McGirr
I think I misunderstood the question, but I'm sorry.
00:21:37 Chris Bugaj
No, it's a good. No, you did fine. You. You did fine. Let me. I'm going to move on to the next question and we'll, we'll. I'm just, we're gonna, we're gonna hit it all here, I'm sure. All right, here's the next question. All right. Now that you're a developer, what does day to day life look like for you? What is. What does work look like for you?
00:22:00 Owen McGirr
My day usually kicks off at 8am when my carers help me get up and ready to start the day. Once I'm settled, I jump straight into work by checking GitHub to see what issues need attention. Most mornings I'll focus on a specific problem, either for Switchify or we've chat. Both projects are a huge part of my daily routine. When it comes to Switchify, I might be fixing bugs, adding new Features or refining the overall user experience. It's always rewarding because I'm deeply connected to the project, knowing firsthand how much accessibility can improve people's lives. We've Chat is another exciting project I work on. Though I can't talk much about it, being part of that team keeps me engaged in different ways, pushing me to think creatively while contributing to something that could make a real difference. Throughout the day, I alternate between solo work and collaborating with my team, solving problems, testing new ideas, and pushing updates. Each day feels productive because everything I work on brings us closer to delivering better, more accessible tools for everyone.
00:23:07 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, you know, Owen, that's a. That's something I think about sometimes. You know, I'm a. I'm a gamer. I like to play video games. I'm on the computer, I don't know, 12 hours a day, you know, and I think about developers. And what something you said that really sticks with me is that because you're so tied to this work, it's a passion. Right? Right. Like, so checking the. The bug reports and going in and fixing them to make someone. It, like, has a real impact, real people as opposed to. And I'm not taking away anything from anybody. Like, oh, I fixed this bug on this game that was, you know, someone was phasing into a wall, and now I fix it. Not phasing into wall. Like, I. Sometimes I think, from a developer standpoint, how do I get motivated to do my coding every day? I don't really care about the work that I'm doing. Right. Like, there's a billion games out there and I'm just up one more. But if I care about this game a lot or if I care about the software that I'm working on, then I have a better drive to do. To do the work. Which seems like what you're doing. Is that. Is that all fair here?
00:24:43 Owen McGirr
The fact is that I have to fix the problems because I use the software to basically interact with every aspect of my life.
00:24:51 Chris Bugaj
Just see, when you fix it for somebody else, it also. You fix it for yourself. Right. If someone else experiences the bug, you're like, oh, I didn't. That. That bug didn't hit me yet, but it might, right? Or you find a bug and then you fix it and that might. Somebody else. That they never even have that problem. All right, that's. I. That makes sense. And I think about that from a. Like, I work for. With kids. Right? And so when we give them meaningful work to do, invite them to solve actual problems, the work is better they feel have a purpose. Right. As opposed to like filling out a worksheet, you know, like, what am I doing that for? Like, same thing if I'm coding just to code, but if I'm coding to actually help somebody, then all right, like, I'm doing something right. I'm putting some good in the world. Yeah. Let me ask you this. It sounds like you've been coding for a while, right? This is not your first year of learning to code. You've been doing it for. Just give me a number. How many years would you say you've been, you know, an active coder?
00:26:10 Owen McGirr
Over 10 years. At least.
00:26:12 Chris Bugaj
For 10 years. So you've seen some change. Everyone listening to this podcast right now, who's listened before, when they're gonna be like, oh, we know where Chris is going. So on this podcast, I have been a big advocate for using generative AI. And so generative AI, maybe a lot of people don't know, but you can use it to write code. So let's talk about that. How has the development of generative AI impacted your work as a developer?
00:27:04 Owen McGirr
Don't get me started. In my experience, generative AI has become an incredibly valuable tool and I use it for a wide range of tasks, research to coding and even writing. It's a huge help, especially when I need to organize my thoughts or work through complex ideas quickly. I often throw my ideas in a language model and use its feedback to refine them. Whether I'm debugging code or fleshing out a new concept for coding, AI can be a real time saver. It can generate large chunks of code, provide useful suggestions, or help me solve tricky problems. However, you have to be careful, as AI generated code isn't perfect. If you're not experienced as a developer, you might end up with something that works on the surface but is riddled with bugs. The AI can only go so far and it still needs human oversight to fine tune and make sure everything is functioning correctly. I also rely on AI for research. It can gather information quickly, but again, you need to be cautious because it might not always give you the most accurate or up to date data them. It's essential to cross check the results and ensure the information is valid. When it comes to AI, I believe regulations are important. There needs to be some oversight to ensure that these tools are used responsibly, especially as they become more integrated into our daily lives. But at the same time, the regulations shouldn't be so restrictive that they prevent people from using AI to help with their work. The key is Finding a balance where we can harness AI's potential, while also making sure it's safe and reliable. It's about empowering users without overwhelming them with rules that stifle innovation.
00:28:56 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, a lot of wise words there, Owen, because I'm on a generative AI task force for our school district, and something I think that keeps coming up is that. That it's a partnership. Right. You use these tools, in part, it's a human and a computer or the AI working together. It's not, you know, on the Internet, sometimes in certain chat forums or social media, it's like, use AI to automate all this stuff, which. Yes. But it's still you as the human that has to make sure it's accurate, make sure it's the way you want to say it, make sure it's doing what you want it to do, because it's a partnership. Is that fair?
00:30:02 Owen McGirr
It's like having a personal assistant.
00:30:05 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, exactly. So you're working with a personal assistant. They're not doing things for you, they're doing things with you. Right. And some tasks they might be able to do and you can trust 100%, and others you have to collaborate with. You know, the other thing that you said that I just want to comment on, Owen, is that it's not new to have to check work. Meaning when I'm on the Internet and I go and I Google something and I get five results and I go look at those results, I'm using my critical reasoning skills and critical thinking skills to say, well, is this accurate, or is this is my red flag going up that this is not. Same thing with hallucinations or things that go wrong in either coding or in. Well, actually, anything that generative AI creates. Is that fair? It's not. It's not a new thing. We should be. We should just use those same skills. Or do you think it is? Maybe I'm wrong.
00:30:57 Owen McGirr
Exactly.
00:30:59 Chris Bugaj
Awesome. Awesome. All right. Oh, and this podcast is primarily about augmentative and alternative communication under an umbrella of inclusive design. And you're using switches and an AAC system. Let's talk about your AAC for a second. What is your journey like with aac? How did you learn to use it, and how did that evolve over time? You know, is there stuff that worked for you that doesn't work for you now, or vice versa? Give us the. Give us the history here, if you wouldn't mind.
00:31:33 Owen McGirr
My AAC journey began when I was around three or four years old. My first experience was with the Alpha Tasha, but I quickly realized that it was too simple for what I needed even at that young age. After that I moved on to the Dynavox, which while better still wasn't ideal, though it was the best option available at the time. Throughout this journey I also tried symbol based AAC systems, but they never really worked for me. I've always responded much better to text based communication methods and the symbol systems just felt too limited. I didn't connect with them in the same way as I found that they weren't advanced enough for the way I wanted to express myself. In second class I was introduced to Clicker 4, which allowed for more customization and flexibility. About a year later I switched to Grid one and it was a major improvement in helping me communicate more effectively. When I entered secondary school I upgraded to Grid two, which quickly became my main communication tool. I was particularly fond of the T9 predictive text feature in Grid 2, which made typing faster and more efficient for me. However, when Grid 3 came out and removed the T9 feature, I resisted upgrading for years, sticking with what worked best for me. Eventually I decided to create my own solution which led to the development of seiit. This app was specifically designed to meet my needs and allowed me to communicate effectively for several years. As my technology needs evolved and I switched to Android, I began using Speech Assistant. However, making that transition wouldn't have been possible without developing the Switchify keyboard, which supports row column scanning and allows me to interact with my devices in the way that works best for me. Looking back, my journey has been all about finding or creating tools that align with my communication style. I've always been drawn to text based systems and developing my own tools has given me the ability to express myself in a way that simple based AAC systems never could.
00:33:37 Chris Bugaj
Find the thing that works for you and your story there Owen it seems to parallel we we've interviewed and I've met so many adult AAC users who can say whatever they want to say and the story seems to always be the same, that it's an evolution over time and you try different things and then some things you're like you get really used to but then there's sort of a push to move on to upgrade or change be like but I'm really good at this, right? It's really great that you could create something that that really worked for you. Like I know who I am, I know what I I know what I like, I know it works for me. So let me build something because if it works for me it might work for other people as well, is that all fair? Yeah. And you are using two switches, you're doing two switch scanning like you said, row and column.
00:34:27 Owen McGirr
It. No, I use auto scanning, but we do have support for manual scannings.
00:35:27 Chris Bugaj
Gotcha, gotcha. Using auto scanning to, to make selections and then use one switch to make the selection. Is that right? Okay, let's go back to computer science for a second. Let's say someone's listening to this and they go, well, I want to get into computer science, or I have a child that wants to get into computer science. What advice would you give them if they're thinking in learning and they want to learn about computer science? Yeah.
00:36:01 Owen McGirr
My advice for anyone thinking about getting into computer science is don't take it lightly. It's a challenging but rewarding field. There's always something new to learn and the opportunities to innovate are endless. One thing I'd really recommend is to leverage AI as much as possible in today's world. It's a powerful tool that can help you solve problems, learn new concepts, and even boost productivity. I've been a developer for over 10 years and I still learn from AI tools. Whether it's generating code, debugging, or just exploring new approaches to complex problems, AI has become an essential part of my toolbox. That being said, while AI can enhance your work, you still need to understand the fundamentals. AI can't replace deep knowledge of computer science, but it can definitely be a helpful companion along the way. So if you're getting into cs, don't shy away from using AI, but always use it wisely and as a learning tool, it'll help you grow faster and become a more effective developer.
00:37:04 Chris Bugaj
So Owen, I hope every computer science teacher out there there hears that message, right? Because I think a lot of people, well, with writing or AI in general, there's this again, that fear of the unknown or that you're not going to learn as opposed to like, so, so don't use AI at all. You have to learn the way I learned because I learned from a book or I learned. However you Learned, like watching YouTube videos I bet was a part of it, right? Like so now you have to do do it. So but AI, you can learn faster and you can learn different ways using AI, it's not doing it for you, it's doing it with you and it can help you learn how to do it. Is that all? Fair? Cool. Cool. All right, let's say, let's now move away from computer science for a second and let's same question about aac. Like so how. What advice would you give other people who are starting their AAC journey?
00:38:21 Owen McGirr
For anyone helping someone learn to use aac, here are a few key tips that can make a big difference. 1. Patience is crucial. Learning to use AAC can be a slow process, and it's important to give the user time to learn and explore at their own pace. Don't rush them. Two, allow the user to make decisions about which products they use wherever possible. This empowers them to feel more in control and comfortable with the tools they're using. Three, let them choose the access method that works best for them. Just because eye gaze technology is new and exciting doesn't mean it's the right option for everyone. Some users might prefer using switches, touch or other methods, and they should have the freedom to explore those options. Ultimately, the focus should be on what works best for the user, not what's the latest or most advanced tool.
00:39:13 Chris Bugaj
Wow. Yeah, that's so. So first, patience.
00:39:17 Owen McGirr
Right?
00:39:17 Chris Bugaj
We've heard that before. But then. And that's so true. But letting people use the thing they want to use, empowering them to use the thing they want to use, makes so much sense to me. I could see how Frustra trading would be for you. I can just imagine if someone was trying to push symbols on you and you're like, listen, I saw them. Thank you for showing me the option. They're not for me. I don't want to use it. Right. Like, no, no, you should use it. You should use it. Yeah, but, okay, I've seen it. Not withhold options, show people options, teach them how they could and then let them choose. Is that fair? Yeah. And then I thought it was you on Facebook, maybe. I've seen you post about like, hey, are we moving away from switches or is IV sort of a, a trend? And, and is that sort of people's go to. Instead of considering switches. Let's not take that out of the mix. Let's still consider switches because there might be people who. Eye gaze is not the thing. It's not going to work for them, for everybody. Give them both options. Is that fair? Yeah. And then here's the other thing, Owen, that I've learned. I, I would not have said this, this seven years ago, but I've been doing this podcast for almost seven years now. And something that I feel like I've learned from doing that is when I approach a young AAC user, I'm looking for their primary mode of access. And that used to be it. It used to be. I used to just think of it. As pri. As. As mode of access switches, eye gaze, direct select, whatever. A head pointer with direct select, whatever it is. I was looking for just one, but something I've learned over the seven doing this is almost everybody has multiple access methods. They use switches sometimes. Sometimes they might be able to use some form of direct select. Maybe they are using eye gaze sometimes. And it's, it's. There might be one primary way, like you're using switches. Primary. But am I right in thinking that most people have multiple access methods and it. It switches in a specific moment?
00:41:44 Owen McGirr
I just can't use I gaze. It is just too slow.
00:41:49 Chris Bugaj
Right, right. And imagine. So the way we do the consideration process in our neck of the woods is we make a list of. Of potential needs or considerations, and then we look at options in a. So that's one column in a table. And then we look at options along the right of. Of. Okay, eye gaze switch access, what type of switch access. You know, and then we go through the list. So, but people need to put switches in that list, right? Not just leave off of it because they think, oh, eye gaze. Let's go there.
00:42:33 Owen McGirr
At the top.
00:42:35 Chris Bugaj
At the top, at the top. Make sure it's on the list. And maybe it's one of the first things you're considering. And just to be clear, too, Owen, what we're not saying is. And tell me if you agree with this, switches that just like, operate. Hit one switch and it operates a lamp or something. Right. Like or hits a switch and it's just yes or no. Right. We're talking about accessing a robust system with a vocabulary that has, that has word prediction and a keyboard. Right. And teaching people how to use switches to. To again, say whatever they want to say, not just limiting to. To cause and effect or turning Pages in a PowerPoint or something like that. Because the reason I'm saying that is I see that sometimes. Right. In my travels, I see that I hit a switch switch, and it's just to do this thing. It's just like a cause and effect. But it's much more than that. Right.
00:43:41 Owen McGirr
There's so much power and versatility.
00:43:46 Chris Bugaj
Yeah. Yeah. It's. There might be steps that you can take to teach somebody how to use a switch. Don't. Don't just disregard it because it. Because you're not familiar with how to do that. Is that fair? Learn? Yeah. All right, let's. Anything else about switches or are you good? Is there anything else you want to say?
00:44:14 Rachel Madel
But.
00:44:27 Owen McGirr
I would be here online.
00:44:30 Chris Bugaj
Okay, let's talk about Switchify, then. Yeah, okay, so I'm saying it, right? Right? It's Switchify, like Spotify or Rewordify. Yeah. It's not okay. I. I thought so. Just making so like you said, you felt like you needed something different. You could develop something better than already existed, right? Is that fair? How did you come up with it and how does it help people? For the people who use it.
00:45:05 Owen McGirr
Switch Access is incredibly powerful and offers users a great deal of control, but the range of available settings can be quite overwhelming. The number of customization options for timing, scanning patterns and feedback can be daunting, especially for those just starting out. My advice would be to approach this with patience and take the time to try out different settings. It's important not to get discouraged if the initial setup doesn't work perfectly. The key is to experiment with various configurations, as it can take time to figure out which setup best fits the user's needs and preferences. With patience and persistence, Switch Access can become an incredibly effective tool offering significant independence and communication capabilities.
00:45:51 Chris Bugaj
Great advice, great advice. And then that you like you said you called the app Switzerland Switchify, right? So tell us about that.
00:46:05 Owen McGirr
Switchify is an open source Android app designed to give people with physical disabilities greater control over their devices using adaptive switches as someone who uses Switch Access myself, I developed Switchify to address the challenges I experienced when navigating technology, offering more flexibility and independence. At its core, switchify allows users to control their Android devices with adaptive switches switches such as buddy buttons or SIP and puff systems. These switches take the place of touch gestures, enabling users to navigate their devices without having to physically touch the screen. This is a game changer for individuals with mobility limitations, allowing them to interact with their smartphones and tablets more freely. One of the key features of switchify is the customizable switch actions. Users can assign different tasks to short or long presses of their switches. Switches. For instance, a short press can be configured to go back, while a long press might open the home screen. This flexibility allows users to set up the app according to their specific needs and preferences. Gesture Lock is another innovative feature that allows users to temporarily assign gestures like scrolling or swiping to their switch. This feature is particularly useful for navigating apps that require a lot of scrolling, such as social media feeds or web browsers. Gesture Lock simplifies these actions, making it easier for users to browse through content with minimal effort. Switchify also includes a keyboard with advanced word prediction. Typing on a touchscreen can be a slow process for Switch users, but with the predictive text Feature switchify makes communication quicker and more efficient. This feature anticipates the user's next word based on their typing history, speeding up the process and improving overall usability. In addition, switchify features a scanning system that allows users to interact with their device by highlighting items on the screen. The app scans through various elements such as icons, menus or text. By moving a cursor across the screen, stopping briefly on each item, the user simply presses their switch when the desired item is highlighted to select it. This scanning system gives users a straightforward way to navigate their devices without needing to make precise manual movements. The scanning can be adjusted to move faster or slower depending on the user's needs, ensuring that the experience is tailored to each individual. Switchify is important because it provides an inclusive solution for people with physical disabilities to navigate and control their devices more independently. In today's world, where so much of our communication, work and entertainment happens through smartphones and tablets, it's essential that everyone has the tools to access these technologies. For individuals with physical disabilities, using a touchscreen can be difficult or impossible without the right accessibility tools. Switchify breaks down these barriers by offering a highly customizable and user friendly experience. Whether it's texting, making phone calls, or browsing the web, switchify empowers users to interact with their devices without assistance. The app is all about giving users more control over their digital lives, allowing them to use their devices in ways that work best for them them. Since switchify is open source, it benefits from community driven development. Anyone can contribute to the project, ensuring that the app continues to grow and adapt to the needs of its users. My goal is to keep expanding switchify's capabilities, including enhancing its compatibility with more devices and switch types, so that it can be as versatile as possible for users with different needs.
00:49:47 Chris Bugaj
Is it fair to say that you have a development cycle, like a list of things that you'd like to improve or change and make better? Better like any other software, right? And you just try and knock them out one at a time and. And you just constantly update. Is that fair? Yeah. Okay. I just wanted to ask one quick question about the word prediction. Does it have both? Predict ahead. So do you have to type the first letter or can you predict? Does it give you the next word that you might want to choose? Do you know what I mean? Does it have predict ahead?
00:50:53 Owen McGirr
It does, yes. I couldn't live without it.
00:50:57 Chris Bugaj
Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. This way you don't have to type the first letter for everything. It's. And then if you don't like it you can type the first letter and then you can keep going from there, right? Yeah. Sweet. Sweet. We've talked about a bunch of stuff. Computer science, AC switches. What else do you want people to know? What else didn't. Did we not cover that people should know about.
00:51:30 Owen McGirr
Switchify is completely free to download and use, which is important to me because I want as many people as possible to benefit from. I often get asked why someone would choose Switchify over Google's built in switch access. The answer is simple. It offers more customization and flexibility. Switchify provides features like customizable switch actions and gesture lock, giving users more control over how they interact with their devices. But instead of taking my word for it, I encourage you to just try it out and see how it fits your needs. If you'd like to support the ongoing development of Switchify, you can find the funding link and more details on our website switchify app.com that is switchify app.com.
00:52:16 Chris Bugaj
And we'll make sure we have that in the show notes. So people can go right over there and click on it and access it and, and download it on their Android devices and try it. Right. And then if they know any developers that were interested in supporting the project, they can also access that. Right. Because it's open source like you said, and they can purchase, participate. Awesome. Awesome. All right. Oh, and I like to finish my interviews with a question about what people are curious about, what they want to learn more about, what you're sort of questing after as a curious person in. In any aspect of your life. What. What's got you kind of jazzed? You know. It.
00:53:44 Owen McGirr
I'd like to see where artificial intelligence can take us in terms of accessibility. I have a lot of ideas. Claude just added the ability to tell your computer to do something and it will physically take control of the machine mouse. I can think of 10 things to do with that.
00:54:01 Chris Bugaj
I didn't know about that. Claude is not something we've talked a lot about on this podcast, but it's another AI tool. Like ChatGPT, like Gemini, like co pilot. Right. And I know this, this might be not accurate, but you tell me. I think it does seem to be more sophisticated in some places. Like some coders and developers seem to like it better. You know, like everyone has their favorite tools. My coders and developers seem to like Claude better. Is that fair or am I stereotyping? I. I had not heard about it. Taking control of the computer. That's awesome. Now I need to go expl.
00:55:02 Owen McGirr
Yes. I find myself using it more. I just wish it could access the Internet.
00:55:09 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. It's interesting. I hear that, too. More and more people is telling me how, like, we have a guy that helps us with that task force that I was telling you about, and he's like, I keep telling everybody, you got to check out Claude. You got to check out Claude. I'm like, yeah, okay, I'm in. I. I checked it out. Yeah. So. And maybe they'll have a version in the future that will talk to the Internet like you can tell it to. We'll see. Yeah.
00:55:40 Owen McGirr
They have two.
00:55:42 Chris Bugaj
Oh, they do, okay. Oh, they have to, is what you're saying. They have to, to keep up. I gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. Agreed. All right, man. Well, listen, I hope someday we meet in person. Maybe you come to atia, or maybe I get to come over there sometime to. I know communication matters. 2025 is in England. I don't know if I'm going to get to go, but maybe. I don't know if you'll get to go, but I hope someday we can figure out how to get together and meet in person. In the meantime, keep coding. Keep. Keep building awesome stuff. And I'll keep shouting from the rooftops.
00:56:22 Owen McGirr
Thank you so much for having me.
00:56:25 Chris Bugaj
Anytime. Thanks for being here. All right, talk to you later.