Episode 339: Ceanna MacGregor & Melanie Boyle: Building Connection through AAC Professional Learning Networks

This week, we share Chris’s interview with Ceanna MacGregor and Melanie Boyd! Ceanna is an AAC specialist and teacher working with CALL Scotland, an organization that supports staff and pupils in overcoming barriers related to assistive and communication technologies. Melanie Boyd is an AAC consultant who runs her own consultancy called Communication Angel. Melanie's career shift into AAC was inspired by the communication needs of her daughter. Ceanna and Melanie share about their participation in the professional learning network, Scottish AAC Geeks, and some of the benefits they have both received participating in this group.

Before the interview, Chris and Rachel share a listener question about her son’s device being wiped, highlighting the need for multiple backups you can access if something happens to the AAC device.

Key ideas this week:

🔑 The Power of Collaboration and Networking in AAC (Augmentative and Alternative Communication): Ceanna and Melanie emphasized the role of collaboration in advancing AAC implementation. Their involvement in the Scottish AAC Geeks highlights how professional networks, even small ones, can create a supportive environment for sharing knowledge and fostering innovation in AAC practices.

🔑 Overcoming Barriers and Shifting Mindsets in AAC Implementation: A central theme was addressing the challenges of fixed or negative attitudes toward AAC. They focused on strategies to promote positive mindsets, such as sharing success stories and advocating for a culture of belief in the potential of AAC users.

🔑 The Role of Innovation and Personalized Support: The discussion highlighted exciting advancements like the integration of AI in AAC and computer environmental controls, which offer personalized solutions and greater independence for users. Ceanna and Melanie also emphasized the importance of providing ongoing support to users, their families, and educators to ensure sustainable AAC implementation.

Transcript of the Episode

Please Note: This transcript was generated using speech recognition & AI tools; it may contain some grammatical and/or spelling errors.

00:00:00 Rachel Madel
 Welcome to Talking With Tech. I'm your host, Rachel Madel, joined as always by Chris Bugaj. Hey, Chris.

00:00:13 Chris Bugaj
Hey, Rachel. All right, we've got a listener email to respond to. This one came to us via Instagram and I don't know, I'm just going to read it. How does that sound to you?

00:00:26 Rachel Madel
Yes, that sounds great.

00:00:27 Chris Bugaj
All right, here we go. Please, I beg you to cover the topic of AAC backups in your podcast. I'm beyond words devastated at the moment. My son's AAC device was wiped clean back in his first grade year. I had a year and a half of customization built into it and I lost it all overnight because a backup had never been set up by the school. I should have sued them then. Instead, I demanded they all get trained in aac and I set up his school device for backups. Now he's in fourth grade and the IT department asked the teachers to hold all the AAC devices overnight. We were informed the same day. I didn't have time to email back. It was too late. They reset the device. They deleted all of his profiles, failing to use the most current backup when resetting his device. I have years and years of customization all lost overnight. They even deleted his Google Drive in which all of his backups have been saved to. I can't imagine they have any assistive technology training. Please cover this topic. I think what they're referring to there is the IT department doesn't have any assistive technology training. Like this person attempted to train the school, trained some of the people in the school, but the IT department didn't know. And it seems like the perfect storm in that they wiped the device and the. At the same time wipe where the device was being backed up to. So just. Let's just take a moment and say that our heart goes out to you that that is an awful, awful situation to have happened. And it does scream the necessity for not just backups for it, but redundancy in your backups.

00:02:07 Rachel Madel
This really broke my heart in so many ways when I read it. And I just. We've all kind of been in situations where we. Maybe it wasn't aac, but we were like, I'll never forget, like, back. Back when I was like, using word processors to, like, write papers. And I'd be like, I lost everything. Like, where did it go now we have these safeguards that are kind of built in where, you know, our documents are saving constantly. However, it just really points to the need for not only securing backups, which I think is just a really good reminder when you hear a story like this to make sure that you have all of those in place and you teach the family about the importance of this. Because you might set up AAC for a student and they, you know, might. You might be the one who toggled on, you know, having a backup sent to Google Drive or Dropbox or whatever the system is. But if you don't also explain the importance to a family around having a backup and making sure you always have a backup, then they could be in a situation where they don't understand how this all works. And, you know, part of our job is to make sure that families are aware of some of these kind of logistical details that become, you know, kind of like a box that we check off when we're first setting up an AAC system, but can so often go overlooked and missed. And then you have a situation like this where, you know, something's lost. And all of the hours and hours that go into customizing and programming an AAC system are lost.

00:03:44 Chris Bugaj
And what's really heartbreaking here is that the lesson was learned. And so they did try to back it up. Right? It's the IT department that didn't know that you shouldn't wipe the device and the Google Drive in the same. Because I understand doing like maintenance and needing to clean things out and needing to update things. And so I understand doing that, but doing that at the same time, all at once, it probably sounds efficient, right? But then you've lost the. The actual file on the hardware and the actual file backed up, which then screams, well, okay, that's the redundancy part. So, yes, when you're going through IT departments or anyone, when you're backing up to backing up things, one, check and make sure that whatever you're erasing isn't absolutely necessary. Two, when you are backing up devices, can you airdrop it? Especially if it's an iPad or whatever, can you have it saved in two different places? So, yes, you can save it to Google Drive. And if you shared that home, it was still, if it was deleted out of the previous Google Drive, it will be shared. The one that's shared at home will also be. Unless they've made a copy of it. Right. So that could be a way share it, but then also make a copy of it or not. And if you're backing it up to Google Drive, that could also be the moment to say, okay, I'm going to airdrop it to my iPad, you know, or airdrop it to an iPad that is not going to be cleaned out by the IT department on this, on this particular day. That just. That seems like a lot of work. Do you know what I mean? I know that most school districts that I know of that we get to work with and chat with are not having multiple redundant backup systems for their AAC devices. You know, it's like we back it up to Google Drive. You know, I also don't think most of them are doing a full device wipe and Google Drive wipe on the same night. So I don't know how often that perfect storm is going to happen. But still, it does make sense to have a protocol that says when I back it up to Google Drive, I also send it via airdrop or some other system to somebody else that won't be affected.

00:05:57 Rachel Madel
Yeah, I think this also brings up a larger challenge and issue, which is kind of the collaboration between home and school sometimes, not always being there. Because I know, like example, one of my students has a. He has two systems, two devices, I should say. And it's so hard because the school has so many parameters around not being able to program certain passwords so that, you know, the family can't get in. And I totally understand at some level, you know, systems are in place for privacy and protection, and there's these kind of like, you know, logistical things within districts and organizations that make the programming and the sharing and the collaborating harder. However, like, my student has basically two separate devices and they have to manually update the home system based off of what's happening at school because they can't just kind of share the vocabularies and update that way. So I think this also just points to a broader challenge, which is sometimes the school home, you know, carryover and collaboration isn't always there. And, you know, in situations like that, like, how do you fix that? Like, what do you do? And not that I have, like a perfect solution here, but it is really important to make sure that we are optimizing, you know, students that have two devices. They have a home device and they have one that they use at school. We're figuring out systems in the initial stages so that we can have collaboration. And again, I think I'm thinking specifically about, you know, AAC specialists who are setting these devices up, getting families going, like creating some type of system in place so that you have, that, you have that, that, that collaboration and that, you know, that synchronicity between, you know, home and school just so that we can optimize communication for our students.

00:08:01 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, it really makes sense to have an Implementation plan. And that is easy enough to generate with generative AI. But the idea is imagine a table that has who are doing all these things like who's charging it, who's backing it up, when is it being backed up, where is it being backed up? Who is going to be programming vocabulary so that not all of us are programming vocabulary and then stuff is in different places. Who's going to be doing the maintenance on the device when the software. Are we automatically doing auto auto updates to devices or are we manually doing those but having those things in a checklist? And then like I saying, sort of like a table. If that's the first column in the table, then over to the right you can have a column that says parents student, like you said, speech therapist or AAC person. Right, whoever. And the list goes on ot, pt, whatever. Right. And so that they can be checked off. Right. And then I do know, I think for some places that sort of standard practice, like you get a device and we decide here we go, we're going to rock and roll, we're going to teach. And there's this immediate and excitement around the start the launch. But then that maintenance of the plan often maybe gets left by the wayside. Like, okay, can we make an arrangement that every time we have an IEP after the iep, maybe it can happen during the iep, but I don't know that this necessarily needs to be during an IEP meeting. But we review. Could it, could we review the implementation plan and make updates and changes to it? Everything look good? Is everyone doing their thing? Remember how we said we were going to leave it charged at night over when you were sleeping? Are we doing that? Remember how we said we were going. To try and charge it, you know, before we leave the school day so it's fresh on the bus or whatever, whatever the plan might be. Are we reviewing that to make sure everyone knows that it's that what it is and that everyone's doing their part and that to review if there's any updates that need to be made?

00:10:06 Rachel Madel
Yes. I mean I love this. It feels like, oh wow, extra work. But like this type of thing is so important. And actually it's like one of those things where if you do a little bit of extra work upfront and like a little bit of maintenance work, everything runs so much more smoothly. Like having one person in charge of programming as an example. Like I can't tell you how many meetings I've been in where there's been this kind of battle between like who's doing What? And like, I opened the device and then it was totally change who did it. We don't even know. You know, it's just like, there's so many roadblocks that can happen. And, you know, the work that we have to do with AAC is already hard enough, right? Like, it's already hard enough to get communication partners, modeling language, knowing how to model, you know, providing enough wait time, all the strategies that we're teaching. Implementation wise, the actual kind of operations should, should be streamlined, organized, and, you know, setting up a plan like this right off the bat, Chris, feels so helpful. Um, I haven't thought through this lens because I'm in private practice, but I also am. Like, this feels like a really good thing. Like, if I am collaborating with a school team, like when we are setting up, you know, or doing a set framework meeting, we're setting a student up for aac, it's like, these are the kind of operations that, you know, if you talk through, you can all be on the same page. And there's nothing that's missed, because I think that's part of it too, is like. And as you were talking, Chris, I was thinking, I saw Karen Erickson, this is years ago, at this point, and she was talking, she has a handout that basically talks about comprehensive literacy. And I love this handout because it talks about. It breaks down all the different skill areas that need to be practiced. And then it's like, who's going to do it? And I feel like the who's going to do it? Piece, it's like, oh, well, like, I thought he was working on, you know, independent race, or I thought he was getting, you know, shared reading. And it's just like, it's the same kind of idea here. Like, when you actually assign someone a task, it's like, well, this is your responsibility. And writing it on a little, you know, piece of paper or like a graph or a spreadsheet or something like that, it just kind of helps everybody take accountability for their slice of the pie. And I just think it can just, again, make things run so much smoother.

00:12:25 Chris Bugaj
And then when you have that, you can keep referring to it. It's going to be really important, Parents, if you're listening to this, to have something like that, because the turnover rate is so high of the professionals that you're going to be working with, either because people have just left or because the end of the school year comes and now you're going to have somebody else. And so reviewing that over and over again makes a lot of sense because the responsibilities are going to change. Unless that's you've decided that it's going to be you. Right. But still having that meeting with those people and saying, okay, now what's your responsibility? What's mine? Let's just review that. And then it's so funny, Rachel, there is, I think, some psychology to the fact that seeing your name or putting your name on the list in the box, you know, says, oh, yeah, now, now I own that, you know, so, so that you don't forget about it, you know, so that it doesn't become just something, but actually seeing it and putting your name in it will help you have the carry through and carry over to make sure it actually happens.

00:13:25 Rachel Madel
Yeah, I love it. And I love, like, getting down to the details of, like, well, we want to make sure the device is charged before he gets on the bus to go home. Like, things like that can make a hu. And it's like things that we don't always think about. But if we plan ahead, then I feel like we can have more success.

00:13:44 Chris Bugaj
So, speaking of working together and collaborating, let me tell you about my interview today. So this is with Ceanna McGregor and Melanie Boyle, who are two individuals that I met when I went to the Communication Matters conference. Ceanna works for Call Scotland up in Scotland, and Melanie works over in Ireland, but they met each other at a Communication Matters previous conference and have been doing some, you know, side hustle work, if you will. And that's what they were presenting on, sort of their work around aac. So we get into much more. You're going to hear all about that, but we get into what it's like to work with AAC in Scotland and Melanie's over in Ireland, so a little bit of both. So without further ado, let's listen to my interview with Ceannan McGregor and Melanie Boyle.

00:14:43 Rachel Madel
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00:15:27 Chris Bugaj
Welcome to the Talking with Tech podcast. My name is Chris Bugaj. And I am joined here today with two people that I met when I was over in Leeds at the Communication Matters conference back in. Well, I GUESS it was 2024. And I walked into their session and it was one of my favorite sessions, if not my favorite session of the entire conference. So afterwards we hung out a little bit, went for a little walk and chatted for a little bit, and I could have done it all day long. And it's like, well, let's do that. Let's. Let's get back together and have a conversation. And that's this. So I'd like to welcome to the podcast Melanie Boyle and Ceanna McGregor. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Tell us a little bit about yourselves. Who wants to go first?

00:16:12 Ceanna MacGregor
I'll go first, then. Hi, I'm Ceanna. I'm part of the Call Scotland team as an AAC specialist teacher. I've only been there since April, and for those who aren't familiar, Cole Scotland is an organization that support staff and pupils throughout Scotland to overcome barriers due to assistive and communication technologies. The call of Call Scotland stands for communication access, literacy and learning. But before that, I was 10 years in primary school as a teacher for those with complex support needs. And my role was basically evolved into mainly communication development and implementation when I wasn't covered in classes.

00:16:56 Chris Bugaj
Awesome. Melanie, before you go, I just want to comment on Call Scotland. I've been working in assistive technology, I mean officially with a job title, for approximately 23 years, 24 years at the time of this recording. And Call Scotland has been a staple of a website to go to to get amazing resources. It's one of those sort of legendary legacy assistive technology resources. And so I'm sure it's awesome that you get to work there and I'm sure they're privileged to have you. So welcome to the team. I'm so glad that you're part of that.

00:17:35 Ceanna MacGregor
Still have to pinch myself and Melanie.

00:17:40 Melanie Boyle
Hi, I'm Melanie Boyle and I'm an AAC consultant. I have my own company called Communication Angel. It's an AAC consultancy. I am Scottish. However, I live in Ireland now. My background's also in teaching. However, it was my daughter who inspired me to pivot my career into the field of aac. And just leading on from that link to assistive technology, I'm currently studying a postgraduate in assistive technology with the University of Dundee.

00:18:12 Chris Bugaj
Oh, wait, so you're currently studying there?

00:18:15 Melanie Boyle
Yeah, yeah, remotely.

00:18:17 Chris Bugaj
Remotely. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. And so you're wearing multiple hats because you have business owner, educator, parent and student.

00:18:29 Melanie Boyle
Yeah, there you go. Yeah, I'm very busy.

00:18:33 Chris Bugaj
All right, well, let's talk a little bit about how you two met, because when I walked into the room and saw you together, I just sort of made the assumption, the wrong assumption, that you guys worked together, that you were colleagues that worked together every day, the way you seamlessly went back and forth. So how did you two meet?

00:18:50 Melanie Boyle
I suppose we sort of do work together through our collaboration with the Scottish AAC Geeks. But it started I actually was looking for a name for my company and I had a list of names that I wanted to just go and check to see if they were taken already. And I went onto Instagram and the name that I was looking for was Communication Connections. And I found Ceanna and I was like, oh, my God, look at this amazing work she's doing. Because she posted a lot about, very visually about what she was doing with the students in her school in terms of AAC implementation. Just found it really inspirational. So in 2022, I was actually doing some research in AAC implementation, and I got in touch with her and invited her to take part in my research from the perspective of a teacher implementing aac. So from there, we sort of got chatting back and forward and we met in person in CM 2023. And then Ceanna sort of introduced me to another friend of hers that we actually had in common, who is Katie, who is also. Well, she was studying the assistive technology module alongside me at the time. And then Ceanna sort of opened up her network to me, which I'll hand over to Ceanna to talk a little bit more about.

00:20:18 Ceanna MacGregor
Yeah. So we just kind of flocked together, I suppose. It was the wonderful world of social media. Like, we had been chatting, had met. Say again. That was through social media as well. And I'd also been speaking to Hannah, who's a speech and language therapist in Scotland, also working with aac. And then we all bumped into each other at Communication Matters. I had arranged to meet Katie and then we were all just sort of hanging about and we were so enthused that we were just straight away created a WhatsApp group and decided we were going to be the Scottish AAC Geeks, because we all had the same ideas and every time one of us spoke, we were like, yeah, I agree. We thought, let's do something together. And then we recruited two more. I'd also been speaking to someone on Twitter. She's from another part of Scotland, speech and language therapist. And we bumped into her because one of the other AAC geeks was a friend with her as well and a teacher that I'd been speaking to on Instagram. She had come out to visit my school because we were sharing ideas and things. So Kirsten ended up joining us as well. So, yeah, just. I think the world of aac, sometimes it can feel like a bit of a small place, like everyone kind of knows everyone and now we just bounce ideas about and chat in the group, ask questions, just blether really.

00:21:41 Chris Bugaj
That really speaks to the power of social media. Sometimes social media gets a bad rap because people can put ugly stuff on there, but it also can do amazing things, like bring people together, like you guys, where you can find each other that way. Just to follow up question to that. How long do you think it was that you were all corresponding via social media before you created the WhatsApp group and then before you. Or maybe you saw each other in person at communication matters 23 and then created the WhatsApp group? But just how long were you. Help me put that chronologically in order.

00:22:15 Ceanna MacGregor
I think we'd all been chatting on social media probably between, I don't know, maybe about six months or something like that. I can't remember. Maybe a little bit longer. And then we met at Communication Matters and I think it might have been the journey home that we created the WhatsApp group. I think it was. Mel created the WhatsApp group within a couple of days. And yeah, it wasn't that long a time. It was. We met online, we met in person, we created a WhatsApp group.

00:22:45 Chris Bugaj
Cool.

00:22:45 Melanie Boyle
Then we. We created a presentation for communication matters 2024.

00:22:51 Chris Bugaj
Foreshadowing. Because we're definitely going to get into that presentation. Let's talk a little bit about. Well, one last question about the Scottish A. AAC geeks. How. How many people are. Are in it now? How. How much has it grown?

00:23:05 Ceanna MacGregor
We've kept quite small just now. There's six of us.

00:23:08 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, six. Awesome. They're all collaborating together. Fantastic. All right, let's talk about your individual day jobs. What are they like and what you. You're both passionate about aac. People can't see you, Melanie, but you got core boards behind you, right in the. In the shot. Right. So what are your day jobs like?

00:23:26 Melanie Boyle
Yeah, so I am an AAC consultant. So what I mainly do is work with. If I go back to the research I did in 2020, I was really trying to find out if everyone was feeling the same as me as a parent and a teacher, where you Know, we had a solution to help find our daughter's voice, but the challenge always was trying to get other people to use it and trying to make sure we were using it in the right way and things like that. So that was sort of the direction I was coming from and the barriers that we had sort of faced and getting people on board, getting school to implement, getting people to just sort of believe that this was something that was going to help and work for her daughter and presume a potential in her that she would be able to know and learn how to use her AAC system to communicate. So through that research, I found that, actually, no, it's not just us that were or myself that was feeling that way, parents were feeling that way. I spoke to teachers. I spoke to speech and language therapists. I really wanted to understand where those gaps were and why. So from that, then I shaped my business around AAC communication partner training. So I train parents and teachers and like charity workers who might work with children that have AAC systems and help build their communication partner skills. What I really enjoy doing is working with teachers in school, because you're not just working with the teacher, then it's whatever you're doing with the teacher is impacting multiple students, and then it feeds into the families as well. So having that sort of ripple effect of change within that one environment is really rewarding to see. I also do training workshops and things for different groups of people. But, yeah, that sort of sums up what I do currently, which I really enjoy it. It's always evolving, and the clients that have sort of pushed me in different directions to find out more and find new ways to support them.

00:25:35 Chris Bugaj
Melanie, I want to echo that passion of working with educators because of that ripple effect. I think that happens with parents too, right? Like any population. But there's some joy. I get more opportunities to go into classrooms more readily. I get to experience that joy a little bit more frequently than I get to work with parents and see that happen systemically. So I echo that enjoyment, right, of seeing that happen. Before we get to you, Melanie, to the extent that you're comfortable, how has that journey gone for your daughter? Have you found some that the education of the communication partners around your daughter, has that improved? Has it gotten better? Is it a constant struggle? Can you share us a little bit again, to the extent. Extent you're comfortable with how that's grown?

00:26:24 Melanie Boyle
Yeah, I suppose. It's interesting. We. She uses pod, which some of your listeners will be familiar with, and she started off with a POD communication book and I think that was quite challenging for people. They weren't really sure what to do. And although like I would provide them with additional training and even if she was just spending a couple hours with someone, I'd say just try and use those first two pages. There's loads of words there you can use with a natural context. And over the last year and a half she got POD on a smartbox device. So now because it's got the voice output and a lot of the things are automatic, people have worked a bit better with that than they did with the POD book. I think because the pages turn automatically, they don't really have to think about it, they just see the screen change and then this new set of words or phrases that they're exposed to choose from. So I think the devices got more buy in than it did the communication book. But I do feel, and Ken and I have spoken about this before and as well with other people at Communication Matters, I think you learn a lot more communication partner skills through implementing the paper based because you've got to physically manipulate that media, whereas when it's on a high tech system it's all automatic and you don't have to really think about the process that you're going through as much. So I think there's a lot of value in paper based communication systems in developing those communication partner skills.

00:28:07 Chris Bugaj
Sorry, can just give me one more second because I want to comment on that. Melanie. So once upon a time our assistive technology team created what was called, called a strategy, a day calendar. So we would go into PowerPoint and we would create, I don't know, 280 strategies, 1 per page. We would give it to students in our local area that would put glue on like cut, print it all out, cut it into fours and then glue it so that we would have these calendars just like you've probably seen like dog of the day or you know, word of the day something. And we would give these out to teachers and they, they loved him. It was, it was ridiculously popular, but there were a handful that would say, well can you give us the digital version? Like we want one a day to pop up in our email or pop up in our browser window or something, or I can go to a website and get it or subscribe to a blog. And we were like, yeah. And we did explore some of those things. But the real power in it was taking your fingers or somehow grabbing the paper and tearing it off, hearing it go, you know, as it tears off. And that kinesthetic experience was different, you know, than just. It's easy enough to ignore an email that pops up in your blog. It's easy enough to look past, you know, something that, on your screen where it's sitting on your desk and you're pulling it off. So it makes a lot of sense to me that, that what you're saying is that everything has its pros and cons and its advantages, but an advantage to the paper based is you, you're there with somebody else, so you're having an interaction, right? It's, it's a forced inter. You, you, it's hard to do it all with, without another person there and you're physically maneuvering things and moving things, which helps you, it gives you a little bit more time to think about what you're doing and how you're doing it. So all of that really resonates with me. Fair?

00:30:02 Melanie Boyle
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And if you make a mistake, you just turn the page back. You don't get completely bamboozled by technology, which is another barrier that we find with implementing sort of that battery powered aac.

00:30:17 Chris Bugaj
Cool, cool. And Ceanna, what's your day to day like?

00:30:20 Ceanna MacGregor
Every day is different. I know every day was different when I was a teacher, but yeah, it's a lot. I still feel very, very new. Obviously assistive technology and AAC is such a vast, vast. You've got a vast remit when you're a specialist in that area. And I still feel a bit of a imposter syndrome when I'm saying that I'm an AAC specialist teacher, I specialise in it, I'm still learning and I never will, I won't. But suppose the main parts of the role is I've got a client caseload which is rapidly growing and it's then assessment and support of learners with disabilities or additional support needs who require communication or assistive technology. And that's actually my favourite part of the role, I think one of my favourites because it involves supporting the learners and the staff and the families in implementing the different tools and strategies. So one of my favorite ways to introduce and incorporate AAC is through play and daily routines. So I get to do that, which is quite nice. And then in doing that we also have to find solutions to help access the curriculum and access solutions for communication as well. One of the other things that I do is develop and deliver professional learning online and in person. Like just now, we're coming to the end of a five week online course, technology to support communication, which has been just really interesting and quite exciting getting Lots of people enthusiastic about the different things that are possible and sharing different tools, strategies and also the practical ideas and resources. And it's a forum where people can ask questions. We've been encouraging them to share photos and make comments about, give, you say, a challenge every week. And we got them to share that on a Padlet. So like a shared area. So it's been quite nice for them, interaction, but also getting people to think outside the box a little bit of like, what they're already doing and what they can build on. And also we develop information resources, we share information through blogs and then strategic side of things, working with the government and local authorities, research and development projects. Quite overwhelming.

00:32:45 Chris Bugaj
When you start listing, you say, is that it? Is that it?

00:32:48 Ceanna MacGregor
Probably more.

00:32:50 Chris Bugaj
Ceanna, let me ask about the. The online course for a second. So it sounds like. Well, let me just clarify, is it synchronous where for five weeks they get on a call once a week and you're sort of guiding them through an experience and sharing some information and then throughout the week they go in off, they do stuff and have interactions, like you said on the padlet, and they come back and reflect and do that over and over for five times. Or is it asynchronous where you're watching a video that you created or something? How does it work?

00:33:20 Ceanna MacGregor
Oh, is it. No, the first one that you said there, we do it. So we've got. It's split into the five. Five different areas we had. The first week was like an introduction and overview and different communication partner skills. So we share some information, we share some resources, we generally go through slides, but as it's gone on, people are quite engaged and it's been quite interactive and then at the end of it, we set a little challenge. So the first week we set the challenge and we thought, no one's going to go for this, but we can live. And. And actually quite a few of them got involved. They were sharing resources that they made, which I'm definitely going to take forward, and other schools that I'm going to. But now it's. We do a bit of a recap the following week of what people have shared and it's just an opportunity to raise questions or make comments about the things that are there. And then we go on to. So far we've done apps and devices assessment and I remember what we did this week, but it's. Yeah. So it's gone on like that and we're now going on to the last week, next week, which is top implementation tools and Strategies.

00:34:26 Chris Bugaj
Awesome. Awesome. It sounds like it's a great experience if people are interacting. Sometimes those things can be like, how come nobody hits crickets in here? And other times it's like fire. And it sounds like it's like it's spreading and people are sharing, which sounds like an awesome experience, asking really good questions.

00:34:42 Ceanna MacGregor
And I think that's what's promoting discussion. And it's like we are kind of tailoring things that will include the following week from the discussions that we've had. So it's been really helpful.

00:34:50 Chris Bugaj
Yeah. So it sounds like it's not a scripted. There's again, sort of a guide that you can roll back to, but you would make adjustments based on the questions they have, which is. I think that's the best sort of professional learning. Speaking of professional learning, let's get into your presentation at Communication Matters. So let's talk about, you know, how you designed it and delivered it. I have to say, when I go to conferences, people have been listening to the podcast for a long time. Know that I have a little bit of a bias that I like when we put on presentations when I'm a part of it, to make it as interactive as possible. And because I do a podcast, I don't feel like you need to come to a place, let's fly over to leads and listen to Chris talk for an hour. Like, you can do that every week, right? Same thing here. When I came into your session, you had built interactivity into it. So let. Let's talk about, you know, how it all went down, you designed it and what the results were of your presentation.

00:35:46 Melanie Boyle
Yeah, sure. So I was submitting an abstract for a solo presentation. And because we all get super excited about chatting in the WhatsApp group, I was curious about doing something together as a group for the Scottish AEC geeks. So I put it in the chat, and myself and Ceanna then got chatting about some of the barriers within our own experiences. There were obvious barriers like funding and AAC implement support, but we found fixed or negative mindsets was a challenge, which came up even before reaching the funding and implementation stage. So we could all sort of relate to that and wanted to explore how to encourage a positive mindset. So Ceanna had notes, since she's changed jobs to call Scotland, she gets a train every day to work. So she'd written loads of notes on her thoughts on mindset as a barrier. So we decided to meet every Tuesday, every Tuesday night, sometimes in our pajamas, for a few months, to share ideas and plan, and we made a questionnaire to explore attitudes around AAC implementation and gather opinions on mindset, negative and positive and the challenges and successes around overcoming those. We hope to get positive experiences and ideas, particularly in overcoming the challenges and embed realistic strategies for supporting aac. And I think that's where the design of the workshop, we really wanted to make it interactive and the title itself, you're meant to do a bit of work there, aren't you? It's a workshop. So from it we really did want to pull some strategies out of people so that they were practical and people could take them away and use them them. But when we got the results back from the questionnaires, it was really, really interesting to see what people were experiencing and to try and create some actionable strategies out of that. So Ceanna's going to talk you through a little bit of the negative attitudes that were experienced.

00:38:00 Ceanna MacGregor
So we anticipated people saying about the negative attitudes, but we didn't really want to dwell on it. We didn't want that to be the main focus of the questionnaire because it's really easy to get caught up in all the negativity because there are barriers and we're not denying that at all. But we wanted to try and extract something from it that would then be a bit of a positive spin or something that we could take forward. So we did ask which negative attitudes were encountered most frequently and we gave some examples and offered that people could add their own. And generally the results showed that there was still a lack of knowledge around AAC and there was definitely a need for myth busting and sharing information. And there's one quote I'm going to read out one response that I thought was really impactful. We only had one AAC user respond to the survey, but their contribution was invaluable. It said that too many AAC users are treated like they don't understand and given boring repetitive tasks instead of opportunities for real learning. Not having access to a robust communication system is torturous. The level of boredom and understimulation, lack of real human connection and deep frustration cannot be overstated. And it just really, really emphasized that emotional impact behind it. Coming from someone who is an AAC user, their lived experience and another impact of the negative attitudes in general, people felt they were being left on their own and that they were implementing the AAC themselves. And it was a little bit surprising at first that we felt it was reading as though people were pass the blame to one another. So for instance, it's the parents fault or the speech and language therapist or the teacher. But actually, once we looked into it a little bit more, it was more that people felt that they were being left on their own and they didn't know where to get the support from. So it was just a bit more of an isolation kind of feel to it. And that was something that really resonated with us because we've often felt alone when we've been implementing AAC or when we've been fighting for support and training. And that's why we started looking for other networks and AAC communities and then made our own we group.

00:40:17 Chris Bugaj
So.

00:40:17 Melanie Boyle
That's right, yeah. We did get some positive attitudes. And what we found from that was that there was a lot of good practice happening, but one respondent really sort of encapsulated what was being experienced. And the quote that they gave was, all of these are present in some people in small doses, so we see little glimmers of positive attitudes, but it's not always happening and it's not always with everybody. And this made us reflect on how often we see these in our own practice. And this shaped the first activity in a workshop that you took part in, Chris?

00:41:02 Ceanna MacGregor
Yeah, the first activity, we asked people to reflect on how often they experienced the positive attitudes. So what we found was that it was difficult to assess. It very much depended on the environment or the people. There was a great variation in knowledge and experience. And that created really good discussion because we had been talking about how you were more likely to surround yourself with people who share the same or similar values to yourself. So if you're more likely to experience positive attitudes to aac, if you yourself hold the positive attitudes to aac, makes.

00:41:41 Chris Bugaj
A lot of sense.

00:41:43 Ceanna MacGregor
Yeah, absolutely. So then it was more difficult to judge then how often you experienced it, because, yeah, you are more likely to experience it. But someone who maybe didn't have the same knowledge and experience around AAC wouldn't be likely to say that they are seeing as many positive attitudes or experiencing as many positive attitudes. And that led on to the next workshop, the next second activity in the survey. We asked what people do to maintain positive attitudes. And we took some of the top responses from that and put it to the participants at the workshop. So, for example, there was sharing success stories and wow moments, being a role model for others, collaborating with other people. And we asked, what does this look like in practice? How does this apply? How do you see this working in your setting? Because the settings and experience obviously are different for everyone. So it was just to encourage people to think a little bit more deeply about the impact of their own actions, and probably that they've already encouraged a shift in systematic mindset just by holding those positive attitudes themselves.

00:42:50 Melanie Boyle
Yeah, there was great discussions that came out of that. And we recognize that in a. The varied environments that we work in, we're all AEC leaders. So through discussions, we recognize that there are actually multiple roles involved in being an AAC leaders. And one of the AAC geeks, Hannah, streamlined her thoughts before the workshop and created a graphic illustrating some of the key roles that we play as AAC leaders and those included. And we highlighted these. Chris, I think you focused on how you advocate being a listener, an educator, a guide, a storyteller, a role model, an innovator, a creator. And we posed the questions, what role are you good at? What role could you do more of? And what could you do in those roles to encourage or maintain positive attitudes towards aac? And we realized after the conference, and actually through probably discussions with you and other people at the conference, that those practical strategies highlighted in the workshop linked with some of the AAC leader roles, which has sort of led on to us continuing this research. And Ken has been very clever with her tech skills and created something really cool.

00:44:15 Chris Bugaj
Awesome. Awesome. Tell us more, Ceanna. Yeah, what have you developed?

00:44:20 Ceanna MacGregor
So I mentioned Padlet. Padlet was quite new to me. I mean, I'd access things before. It's like a shared space where you can access files, but it's also quite interactive where you can post comments depending on the settings and things, things. So you know, one of those things that just pops into your head, like when at night when you're trying to sleep and you're like, oh, I know what I could do. So I decided to make a Padlet, but using the graphic for the AAC leader. So it's a kind of for people listening, it's a graphic where it's got a circle in the middle and it kind of web. It's a web into other circles with the different categories. So I thought, well, can we make it so that when you click on, for instance, Advocate, it will take you to another page where people can then contribute their ideas or post links to how make this look what's going to be useful. So we now have an interactive Padlet. It's in the very early stages, but each from the graphic, each role links to an associated page. And we're hoping that maybe the listeners as well, you could share that or they can find it. We'll be sharing it on our social media that if people could add to it it's just so beneficial when it's real people sharing real experiences and real life things that have worked for them, them. And it might well empower people and help people realize that they're probably already doing so much more than they give themselves credit for or what they've even realized. So we don't really know where it's going to go yet. It will most definitely evolve, but we've got a bit of a skeleton for it. And there's another bit as well in the presentation. At the end of the presentation, we shared a video in the survey we'd asked. The last question that we'd asked was, was there a positive moment that sparked your positive a AAC mindset? Was there a particular moment? So it was more out of curiosity. And I really. I don't know what we were kind of looking for for people to give us back, but what we got back was just.

00:46:18 Melanie Boyle
I think we just love hearing people's stories.

00:46:21 Ceanna MacGregor
Yeah.

00:46:22 Melanie Boyle
Because it's the way that. It's the way that we connected as the AAC geeks was like, what was your wow moment like? What inspired you to go down this path to learn more about AAC and support AAC implementation? So we wanted to find out from there.

00:46:36 Ceanna MacGregor
And I don't think I' actually even thought about it until you asked me. We were doing an Instagram live and Mel asked, what. What made you get into this? And it's like, oh, yeah, I don't know. And it just, it made you think a little bit further about what? What is it that makes me feel so passionate about it? And we just really like hearing everyone else's responses. So we collated what people had given us back from that question, put it into a little video, and on the padlet there is a little section that is called AAC Joy. And you can CL that and view the video with the comments that we've collated. But there's also space for people to share their own comments because maybe there's more people like us that think, oh, I need a wee, pick me up. I'm feeling quite at the end of my tether trying to implement aac. And then you could have a wee look at this page that's got these lovely stories because it's not easy, but the lovely stories are what makes it worthwhile. So that's included in the padlet as well.

00:47:35 Chris Bugaj
Let me just comment on all of this. So the first thing is, one of the aims of the podcast was to look at AAC from a global level. Like, what's happening across the entire planet. Right. And so we've had interviews with people from different countries. You're the first ones from Scotland and, well, Ireland, I guess, Melanie. And something that we hear is a trend is it's. It's sort of the same story over and over where there's this. A small pocket of people that have these positive mindsets and there's some awesome stories that can be told around amazing outcomes that have happened if you had the positive mindset. But there is a lot of negativity around, or I guess loneliness that can lead to negativity around, well, how come there's not more people joining this movement or this cause? Right. It's one of the reasons, I think, the Talking with Tech podcast has been as popular as it is. People have told Rachel and I, when we meet them at conferences that they're cheering along when they're on the train or they're in the car, like, you know, yelling at their. At their MP3 or their phone, right? Going like, yes, yes. You know, because it does feel so isolated at times. But when you think about it in the same way that you guys got together and you spread to this team of six so far of the Scottish AAC geeks, you find people out there in the sphere that makes it feel less lonely, right? That you're not the only one out there. And you can do this connectivity, and then there's different ways you connect. And this idea of putting it into a padlet through, underneath the concept of leadership, right? Okay. If you're out there and you're trying to make a change, that means you're a change agent and you're a leader. And yes, that can be lonely. But know that there's other people out there so you don't have to feel so alone. And here's a shot in the arm when you need it. You can go to this padlet and you can see some stories and be like, that's a win. And then you can give back to that and say, here's a win that I saw and some amazing outcomes. So it just keeps. It keeps you going. Right? Plus, that's just one part of it, right? It sounds like there's other parts of the padlet are other, like, practical strategies, things I hadn't thought of before, a different tool or resource that I didn't know about. So all of it sounds extremely useful and extremely powerful if you were to go and visit. So we will make sure that we have the padlet linked into the show notes. So people are like, yeah, that does sound something interesting that I'd like to go participate in in. They'll have that as an opportunity.

00:50:08 Melanie Boyle
Chris, I love that analogy that you've highlighted the wow moments as a bit of AAC medicine. I love that.

00:50:18 Ceanna MacGregor
Absolutely. As though, like you said, it's very isolating at times. And that was why I'd started sharing things on social media because I did feel quite isolated and then meeting the other AAC geeks, meeting other like minded people is absolutely given me the drive to take things forward and half the time I might feel like I don't know what I'm doing, but at least there's other people there that are in the same boat.

00:50:40 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, yeah, it's absolutely a way to connect people together and keep your emphasis and joy around it and know that you're making a difference when you see other people. Right. You said when you're around the results of your survey is that when you're around people that are positive, have positive attitudes around aac, then the longevity increases, people stick around longer, they feel supported and so same thing. If you don't have those people in your immediate sphere or even if you do having more people in your extended sphere, definitely it can only be a good thing. Right, Right. So let me turn to the rest of the conference. So that was one session, but you were there for the whole conference. Did you. What did you think of it? Like, did you get to participate in other parts of it? Did you see anything cool? What, what would just in general, what'd you think about communication matters 2020, 24?

00:51:36 Ceanna MacGregor
Yeah, I really like it. So in 2023, that was the first time that I had been. And then, you know, that way you're just like, oh, fine by people. So when I went back last year, it was still the same vibe. It was just really empowering to be around so many people who have similar values and who are doing the same sort of things as you. So it was really good for making connections, networking and learning from other people. And it does ignite your enthusiasm to do something else. That said, I've still got a lot of people that I've still to follow up with, but the plans are there, they are on the to do list. But yeah, it was amazing hearing some lived experiences as well of AAC users. I think that's really, really powerful. The theme was empowerment. So there was an awful lot from the things that I went to, the presentations that I saw, there's a lot around autonomy and self expression, which is fantastic. I think I saw quite a bit about the importance of AAC networks, which obviously resonates with us and AAC in schools, something I'm passionate about. It's really nice to see that there's quite a few different posters and workshops surrounding how to implement aided language in schools. And something that I'm beginning to get quite interested in is AI and aac. There is a few exciting developments around that area as well.

00:53:02 Chris Bugaj
And Melanie, what about you?

00:53:04 Melanie Boyle
Yeah, it's definitely changed over the years. The first time I attended was in 2016, and that was. I was very new to AAC at that time. And at that time, I couldn't really see how my daughter fitted into this whole world of aac. But certainly over the last two years, I've seen a big shift to that sort of inclusion of and adapting to neurodiversity divergence and how, you know, people are really beginning to understand how to support people who are neurodivergent. So I really enjoyed hearing more and more about that. And again, echoing what Ceanna was saying about the C in schools was lots to talk about that, and that's always really encouraging and to see positive stories that you can then go and share again, positive mindset. Go and share with the people that you're working with, say, hey, look, this is what's happening here. And. And I think the best thing for me about CM is the opportunity for people of all levels of connection to aac, from developers to researchers to AAC users to family members. You're all getting to come together and collaborate and share and learn from each other. And it works both ways. You know, the developers are learning from the AEC users and the AEC users are benefiting from the adaptations and changes that the developers are making. So I think it's really, really valuable. And this year, something I really enjoyed, apart from, you know, connecting and seeing friends that I've made over the years, was at the dinner, the. The dinner where they had the comedy and stuff like that on the. I forget what day of the week it was. Was it Monday night? The Monday night they had a seating plan. So usually you go and you sit next to all your cronies, all your friends, but this time there was a seating plan. So we were kind of thrown in. But I think I was at a great table. I was next to Bob Sigu, who, you know, I do, and Harry and his wife. And we had some lovely chats as parents and as people working in the field as well. So it was really nice opportunity to. To connect and have an excuse to chat.

00:55:16 Chris Bugaj
Ceanna you. Did you go to the. The dinner as well?

00:55:20 Ceanna MacGregor
Did, yeah.

00:55:21 Chris Bugaj
And you were seated at a different table. Cable, is that.

00:55:24 Ceanna MacGregor
Yeah, it was. There's a couple of people that I knew I was going to be sitting with, Tina Voisey that you might know from. She was part of communication matters as well. Yeah, yeah. But she. She was dealing with some other things that were going on. So I thought, oh, I don't know if I know anyone, but there was someone from Toby Dynavox that I know and a couple other people that they were also from Scotland. So I thought was this strategic because now we have plans to be developing things and possibly roping in other people who were sitting at the table to maybe take things forward in the future. So it was. It was good. It was actually good getting kind of flung in with people that you maybe wouldn't have sat next to if you were. If you were just out left of your own accord. Yeah, it was a really good time.

00:56:12 Chris Bugaj
I was at that dinner as well, and I was seated next to Bronwyn Hemsley, who is from Australia, did a presentation there and that's someone I had been looking forward to meeting. And then I was just happened to be placed there. So we ended up talking all night about all sorts of different things. I invited her to come on the podcast. We'll see if that happens somewhere down in the future. So that was awesome. And I think the other thing that they strategically did around that dinner is I think, don't quote me on this, but I'm 99% sure there was an AAC user at every table, so you could interact if you hadn't got that opportunity yet or, you know, the messages always go say hi. But that is also when you're at a conference and you're busy and you're moving there, here and there, there and get to the sessions. How do you really get to engage in a. Maybe a longer conversation than. Maybe than just say hi, right. Or ten minutes or more? This. This provides an opportunity to have more. A longer experience. Is that fair? Is that what you noticed as well?

00:57:11 Ceanna MacGregor
Like you said, I hadn't actually realized that, but yeah, very clever. I think you could be right there. Yeah.

00:57:18 Melanie Boyle
I think there had been an issue the year before, though, because. Because everyone just gets to go and sit where they want. And then when the AC users were coming in, it was hard for them to find a place without having to go through all the tables. So I think it was very well planned this year. Definitely.

00:57:36 Chris Bugaj
Yeah. I think part of the planning behind Communication Matters is just like part of your survey, where you had an AAC user contribute and give feedback and give their perspective. Same thing. The leadership at Communication Matters includes AAC users and they're actively seeking out their voices about what can we do better next year so that it continues to become more inclusive, more accessible, more available to everybody from physical disabilities, people who, like you said, are respecting neurodiversity and become neurodiversity even more Neurodiversity Affirming conference. So I just feel like in the future it's going to continue, even get better and better and better as that. All fair?

00:58:23 Ceanna MacGregor
Yeah, I think so.

00:58:24 Melanie Boyle
Yeah, definitely. Especially with the committee that they have now.

00:58:27 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, they're, they're great. All right, well, let's talk a little. Bit for, for a minute here about Scotland itself and the services you see in Scotland. Or, Melanie, feel free to pivot and talk about Ireland a little bit if that's, if that makes more sense. Because again, part of the mission of the podcast is to help share, like, what are, what's happening around the globe? Is it, what's different? How is it set up differently? And is there something we can learn from the way you do it versus the way we do? You know, so, you know, in a, in a, in a few, you know, in an elevator pitch. Can you describe what it's like in Scotland and then, Melanie, your choice, Scotland or Ireland?

00:59:05 Ceanna MacGregor
I think in Scotland, there's a lot, a lot of things in place in theory and on paper. I think there's still a big challenge in consistency and support and implementation and communication partner skills. But there's a lot of progress has been made. In 2016, the Scottish Parliament passed legislation and that entitles people with communication difficulties to be provided with communication equipment and support. The law took effect in 2018, and there's now a clear pathway from assessment to support and review. There's definitely great practice. Just from my own experience, there's great practice that I have seen, but I think we're still got probably a bit to go for it to be fully embedded and consistent, but it's definitely on the right path. And there's, there's, I believe, some useful, really, really useful support resources that are getting planned to roll out soon. And that'll be for those to support those who are implementing EAC and those who are getting EAC from the assessment through to review.

01:00:09 Chris Bugaj
That sounds awesome. What a great improvement in the, in the last 10 years. Right. That's amazing.

01:00:14 Ceanna MacGregor
Yeah, I think from a personal experience, I've definitely Seen an increase in provision, obviously, from my own experience, I still know that there's an awful lot of more children who could benefit. But that's always going to be the case, the way things are currently. But because it's improving, can assume that it's only going to get better.

01:00:33 Chris Bugaj
Awesome. Awesome.

01:00:34 Melanie Boyle
And Melanie, I think Ireland's got a lot to learn from what's happening in Scotland. Definitely there's a lot more movement in a positive direction in Scotland. This year, the national autism charity in Ireland, called AsIAm, received a big chunk of funding to put forward a pilot project to provide support with AAC implementation support with AAC assessment and procurement. And that's just getting rolled out now in 2025. So they opened up applications at the end of 2024, but it's a new project and they're working quite closely with people in England based on the hubs that they would have in England, where if you needed any AAC provisions, then you would be referred into the hubs and they would do an assessment and trial, things like that. So they're trying to base it on what's happening in England, but it's only for people that have autism diagnoses, so it's only for that population currently. So I'm hoping it'll go well and expand out into the wider population.

01:01:56 Chris Bugaj
Melanie, can you just talk just a little bit, or. Ceanna, if you would like to, however you want to describe it. You mentioned this word, hubs, and that. Was new to me. When I went to England, I got the impression in it was like regions that are covered. Is that fair? Can you describe that a little bit more?

01:02:14 Melanie Boyle
They call it a hub and spoke system, don't they, Ceanna?

01:02:18 Ceanna MacGregor
It's actually still quite new to me as well, so I'm gonna follow your lead on this one, but I think so.

01:02:24 Melanie Boyle
So, for example, we lived in England, actually, that's why I know more about England, Chris, because that would have been the process we'd gone through initially with Eng, their daughter, and with the children that I was working with in the uk. So if you, if it was deemed that your child could benefit from robust aac, you would have. Your. Your speech and language therapist would then refer you into the hub and the hub would carry out the assessments and things like that. So the, the, the speech and language therapists within the pediatric services wouldn't deal with it. They would refer you into the hub and that' get the specialist support. But that was based on. Now, I can't remember the name of the theory behind it before, but, you know, you have to be able to show that you can distinguish between two symbols and make choices of two symbols and all that kind of stuff. The prerequisites.

01:03:24 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, the Candace model, right?

01:03:25 Melanie Boyle
Yes, that's the one. So at that time, our daughter didn't meet that criteria, so. So we. We went ahead and did our own thing.

01:03:35 Chris Bugaj
Sorry. People didn't see me shaking my fist in the air in disgust. Yes.

01:03:40 Melanie Boyle
But I have friends and, you know, old clients that went through that system and it worked really well for them because they were able to prove that they could meet all those requirements. But. Yeah, so that. I think it's a hub and spoke thing that they call it.

01:03:57 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, gotcha, Gotcha. Okay. I mean, and for those times, that makes sense. And it seems like those are legacy things. But now I. I definitely got the impression from talking to people that even though that's set up that way, that there's. There's growth happening in how to think about assessments. I mean, is that fair?

01:04:16 Ceanna MacGregor
Yeah.

01:04:17 Chris Bugaj
How people think.

01:04:18 Melanie Boyle
I think the. The referral pathway is. There's a change happening now. I think they understand a bit more about the potential of children and how. How you learn to use aac, you know, by being. By getting the chance to learn how to use it before being assessed if you can use it or not. So I think that understanding is there now and within. Definitely within different regions, they are changing their practice and their referral process. So, yeah, I think that's. That's definitely a positive.

01:04:50 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, that's exciting.

01:04:51 Ceanna MacGregor
In Scotland, it's a little bit different. Quite different, because the. The national pathway that I just described, each authority does things slightly differently, but the general feel is that if there is. If they're wanting to explore whether AAC would be beneficial, it goes through the speech and language therapist and then a referral is made. But that in general, I do feel that we are quite fortunate in most places because it is the general assumption that it will be followed up and there's not that. Although. Although I'm sure it does exist in places where people are still having to prove themselves. It's not the done thing. And the pathway that we have is also explicitly states that there are basically no prerequisites. So the referrals go through generally speech and language therapists, but they also can be referred to call Scotland when it is assistive and communication technology.

01:05:44 Chris Bugaj
Awesome. Awesome. What's next for each of you?

01:05:49 Melanie Boyle
I think we'd love to get this Padlet out there and continue our research and that sort of direction. I'm going to work hard on passing my postgrad and assistive technology, which has been really interesting and really, I do think it's always supporting the progress for me and being able to support my clients and have a deeper understanding of the research and really be able to unpack that more than through the training that I've done so far. Actually going back to the papers and reading them in more detail and it's given me a stronger foundation, I think. And I think in terms of my business, I want to try and support people. Like Ceanna was saying before, to try, try and support from like nursery all the way through education to support staff and being able to implement AAC effectively, rather than what we see happening is a child might be given an AAC system, but then there's no support around that. So really trying to help at all levels in terms of the business.

01:07:05 Ceanna MacGregor
Yeah, that's probably one of the main things that I really want to go forward with. And having AAC and aided language as universal supports, so having more places adopt like a universal design for learning, that's maybe not quite as big here as what it is in the States, but I would love to be part of that movement and implementing a sort of baseline. This is just what we do. It's status quo and then build from there because it's only a good thing. So, yeah, definitely. If any Scottish schools are listening and they are interested, get in touch with Cole. What I'm really excited to learn about is, I mentioned it earlier about AI and aac, but it's the prospects for improving the efficiency of AAC systems, but also developing the personalization and choice available within communication apps and devices. So I'm really enjoying exploring where that's going. And something that was reasonably new to me, which I am still only scratching surface with with, is computer and environmental control. I'm very, very interested just with things that are coming up with certain individuals I've been working with. It's a recurring theme that having greater control over computers and environment and things, it's just so empowering and gives so much more independence. So that's one of the top things on my list.

01:08:29 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, awesome, awesome. What about the Scottish AAC geeks? What's next on the horizon for the six of you?

01:08:37 Melanie Boyle
We were very popular at the conference when we mentioned that we were a group of AAC Scottish AEC geeks. People were trying to, like change their postcodes to make it so they lived in Scotland instead of elsewhere. But I think for. For now, I think we're we're happy to stay small because it's a safe place for us to share and exchange knowledge. There are the bigger groups out there where you can post questions to get answers, but because know each other well now and we've got that trust and connection, we know each other's backgrounds a little bit. It's easier for us to bounce things off each other while we're a smaller group. But maybe in the coming years we'll have hubs and spokes and we'll have groups across, across the whole UK and Ireland and possibly in America as well that we can can support, but we're not really sure what that's going to look like just yet.

01:09:35 Ceanna MacGregor
Oh, so that's why we're starting with the Padlet, seeing how that grows and people can get in touch with us and we're more than welcome people to bounce ideas around. But like Mel said, like where we've got currently the little group that we've got, we can ask silly questions with no fear of repercussions and things like that. So it's quite nice and we just know from other forums that we are part of that. The bigger it gets. That's fantastic for drawing on other people's experience and knowledge, but you maybe aren't as confident in asking the questions or voicing your opinion. So we're as an intermediate sort of thing, people can get in touch with us through our social media and also hopefully through the Padlet and then, yeah, we'll see where it takes us.

01:10:16 Chris Bugaj
I think that's really wise. Control growth, if you want growth at all. Like you have this little club and it's awesome. It could be something. You could create your own club and have six people that have similar experiences so people feel comfortable because I could not agree more. The larger it gets. Yes. You might share more resources. There's. Sometimes those resources aren't necessarily the right resources or the great greatest resources, but keeping it tight and small and intimate can be a really valuable thing. Right. I mean, I totally get that and still produce awesome stuff that you can share to the world. Maybe it's a little bit of both. Right. There's a larger version and there's a smaller version. All those sound like great opportunities. All right, I have one last question to ask you and that is what are you planning for communication matters 25? Are you coming and what have you been bouncing around ide about? You know what you're going to propose as a presentation? What's the plan?

01:11:08 Ceanna MacGregor
I think we're still recovering. So we'll hopefully. I'd love to be there. And we don't know in what capacity.

01:11:19 Melanie Boyle
Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully we'll have some sort of representation of the Scottish AAC geeks at the conference. Maybe we'll be back to share our future, further learning from our previous workshop and what we discover from sharing the Padlet. I think it would be interesting, but we'll wait and see. It's a while until the abstracts are.

01:11:43 Chris Bugaj
Due, so I completely understand when those come out. That's when it's really. The questions start to happen. It rattles around in your brain and occasionally you have ideas the same way. Ceanna, right where you were like, oh, I woke up. And I was like, I know what I could do. A Padlet same idea with presentation ideas, right? Is like, what if we turn this present the Padlet into a presentation and what we learned about it? Like, those sorts of ideas generate sometimes in the weirdest of places. So I totally, totally get it. Well, I guess it's a wait and see for the people that might be coming to communication matters 25, which I would totally encourage anybody listening to this podcast to. To follow them and get that information so that you can consider it. I mean, I know from my own experience, my wife was able to travel with me and then we were able to extend and we were able to get. To come back. We went south to London because Leeds is in. Sort of in the center of. Of England. But maybe next time we go north and we come up to. To Scotland. I'll also tell you guys that my son is a. Right now he's a sophomore in college studying veterinary science, and he just recently told, you know, my wife and, and I that he was looking at exchange programs in Scotland. So I was like, all right, man, that's awesome. Yeah. All right, so one last thing. How do people get in touch? We can, of course, share this information in the show notes, but is there, you know, a hashtag or a. How do they contact you?

01:13:11 Ceanna MacGregor
Probably through our individual social media channels. I tend to post more on Instagram just because. Because Twitter's got a lot of bots recently, so it's just. It's easier. But if you can find me on either. If you search communication connections and you'll.

01:13:31 Melanie Boyle
Find me at aaccommunicationangel on Instagram.

01:13:37 Chris Bugaj
Love it. Love it. All right, well, thank you so much for the work you're doing, for your willingness to share, for making such an engaging presentation, and for sharing some time with me at the conference and here today on the podcast thanks. Thank you so much.

01:13:49 Melanie Boyle
Thank you so much. Thanks for having us.

01:13:51 Ceanna MacGregor
Thank you.

01:13:52 Chris Bugaj
You're very welcome. Bye bye. Now.

01:13:54 Melanie Boyle
Bye.