Episode 310: Beth Moulam & Joanna Holmes: Recognizing AAC Users as Multimodal Communicators

This week, we hear Chris’s interview with Beth Moulam and Joanna Holmes! Beth is a master student, former Paraolympian, a Trustee of Communication Matters (a branch of ISSAC), and patron of a charity called One Voice. She is a multi modal communicator who often uses AAC devices to communicate. Joanna (@mummyvsaac on Instagram) is the mother of Lucy, a 9-year-old multimodal communicator with a complex medical history that includes a genetic component. They share about Beth’s AAC journey, the importance of a language rich environment on AAC development, the multimodal nature of communication, and more!

🔑 Beth doesn’t feel she will ever reach her final communication destination, because she is always learning. Learning to use AAC is a labor of love, it takes hours of practice and lots of resilience for the user, families, and their support networks.

🔑 Beth and Joanna both emphasize the many modes of communication a complex communicator uses to communicate.  A person’s communication “system” is more than the AAC app a person uses, it is everything that person does to communicate with others.

🔑 There is a popular misconception that getting an AAC device will lead to lots communication. You also need the language to use it, which for some is a long jump. Learning to use AAC for most people isn’t like flicking a switch, its like building a house - it takes a team of people, doing their best to do things in the right order, learning nail-by-nail, to use AAC together.

🔑 Beth had a communication rich home environment as a child, including being read to daily and having phonics on her bedroom wall that she discussed with her mother. She believes this was really important to her literacy and ability to work with AAC at a young age.

Transcript of the Episode

Please Note: This transcript was generated using speech recognition & AI tools; it may contain some grammatical and/or spelling errors.

00:00:08
Welcome to the Talking with Tech podcast. My name is Chris Bugaj, and I'm here with Rachel Madel. Rachel, what's the goal for this podcast?

00:00:15
The goal is to talk about goals, Chris. We're in a goal matrix right now. I want to share a story of one of my students. Students. And, you know, just to be clear, like, I kind of hate sometimes when I, like, come on the podcast, and I'm like, let me just rant about how bad this situation was.

00:00:40
But I also think there's a value in kind of sharing some of the things that we see in our clinical practice, you know, especially if we're tasked with, you know, working alongside of another SLP or a teacher. We're, like, supposed to be collaborating on goals. Like, I feel like there's a value in learning how to navigate some of these situations. Not to say that I always navigate it perfectly, because I definitely don't, but I feel like I've tasked myself with the challenge of figuring out how to navigate these tricky situations in a way that doesn't feel like, doesn't make someone feel bad, doesn't make them feel like I'm kind of stepping on their toes. But it's like, ultimately, my goal is to just advocate for the students that I work with and serve.

00:01:29
And I just, like, I don't know. I just can't let, like, bad goals, like, slide past me in an IEP meeting. I just can't.

00:01:39
I just want to comment on that real quick.

00:01:40
Yeah.

00:01:41
There is a way to approach situations that will make people dig their heels.

00:01:45
In, and then they will keep writing.

00:01:46
Goals or whatever the thing is. Whatever the thing is that you're trying to help them move towards, and they'll just. I know because I've done it.

00:01:54
I've said the wrong things and go, oh, man, how could I go back?

00:01:56
So what I'm hearing you say is, okay. I gingerly have to think through, how do I present the way you've written this goal is not really supporting the student. So what'd you do? What was the situation, and how'd you handle it?

00:02:10
What's really interesting, Chris, is actually it's kind of two situations. Like, it was almost not the same goal, but a similar conversation. And so, essentially. So it's kind of. I'm sharing kind of from both of the angles, because, believe it or not, like, in the last two weeks, it's like the same thing kind of popped up again, and I was like, wow, here we are again.

00:02:33
So, essentially, we're talking about a student one of my students annual ieps, he's made amazing progress in the last year. He's now combining lots of words together, two to three words. Now, he's not, they're not necessarily sentences. They're kind of stringing ideas together, which is definitely a next step for a student who's emerging with communication, is kind of combining ideas together. We don't have to have all the little words yet, but we're kind of putting ideas together.

00:03:02
And he's definitely doing that, and I definitely want to see him doing more of that because he obviously has some things that he's really motivated to communicate about, and we hear those things a lot. Really teaching him a lot more core language would be my goal for this student. And so oftentimes when I'm working with a student privately, I'm also trying to collaborate with what's happening at school. So I'm working alongside of other slps and teams, and then when the IEP comes up, families are typically asking me to join their IEP. And what I've learned, actually is that I usually have the most issues with the goals.

00:03:43
So, like, if there's going to be a point of contention at an IEP meeting, it's likely going to be on the goals. So I totally understand the point of an IEP meeting is to kind of bring the whole team together and talk about things, including goals. But what I find is that if I kind of push against a goal in an IEP meeting, it can quickly lead to everyone getting defensive, and then it's like school versus home, and it can just go down a path that's not ideal. And so what I've learned in my experience is like, can I have a meeting with people ahead of time? So whether that's the teacher cause we're trying to work on literacy goals or that's the SLP, cause I wanna kind of talk and collaborate on spouse or communication goals, I find that if I can have some FaceTime ahead of time to kind of go through that process with the professional, I don't have to make them feel like I'm putting them on blast in front of an entire IEP meeting.

00:04:47
So that's been a really successful strategy. Now, I didn't have the opportunity. I don't always have the opportunity to do that. Sometimes parents are like, oh, yeah, by the way, his IEP meeting's in two weeks, can you go? And I'm like, ah, my schedule is pretty tight and I can't always make time when it's last minute to be able to meet.

00:05:05
And also, providers don't always have that time either. So I wasn't able to meet ahead of the IEP meeting. But of course I get the goals and I'm looking at this goal and it's like, basically. And the rationale was also kind of put in the email about like, why we want to work on this next step. And this SLP thought, like, a really good next step was because he's communicating in two to three words about things that he loves.

00:05:29
The next step would be communicating two to three words in structured, non preferred tasks. And I was like, hmm. I'm like, okay. And to be fair, I understand at some level why someone might go down that thought process as like, oh, well, like, he can talk about, you know, his favorite YouTube videos, and he's combining words to talk about music and his favorite toys. But now we need him talking about the curriculum like, we need him participating in that reading exercise and that worksheet and talking about the weather, you know, and so I get it.

00:06:07
But when I read non preferred activities and tasks, as far as a communication goal, the only thing I wanna teach kids to communicate during a non preferred task is I don't like it. This is boring. I wanna do something different, like self advocacy. Right?

00:06:26
Because the student, did you redesign this?

00:06:27
Yeah. So the student doesn't have self advocacy, yet he is emerging in being able to kind of protest and say, no, we're all done. But it just got me thinking, how do I approach this? How do I share? I don't think this is good.

00:06:46
And if I was going to write that goal, thinking that the student currently is at two to three word combinations with motivating things, the goal of two to three words with not motivating things, I don't think is the next step. I feel like it's. It's not likely that we're gonna get with something that's not motivating the same level of communication, meaning the same amount of words and word combinations and things like that. And so I actually haven't gone to the IEP meeting yet, and I haven't actually dealt with the situation. Funny enough, another kind of conversation I had with a teacher was similar the week before, which was like, talking all about how the student's not participating in classroom activities and all they wanna do is talk about insert their favorite thing.

00:07:36
And so it's just an interesting thing to think about. And I get from the IEP school side of things like, we have to focus on a curriculum and we're beholden by these curriculums and these ieps and these goals. But I feel like so often with emergent communicators, we're just, like, forcing them down this path of non preferred and structured activities when they're really just like little fledgling communicators that are, like, just, like, getting their wings and deciding to fly. And we can totally squash communication so abruptly if we're focusing on things that they don't care about. And so it's like, how do we navigate this space of, like, we're not at a place where, like, we have the luxury of being like, you know what?

00:08:25
Now you're gonna talk about things you don't like. You know, it's just like, we still need to get better at talking about the things that we love. You know, there's so many other things that we need to work on. And again, if we're gonna talk about things we don't like, let's actually talk about the fact that we don't like it.

00:08:40
Yes, totally.

00:08:41
Totally.

00:08:41
All right, I have a couple thoughts.

00:08:42
The first one is, what's your favorite food, Rachel?

00:08:46
Cheeseburgers.

00:08:47
Cheeseburgers. Do you like bananas?

00:08:50
Yes.

00:08:51
Okay.

00:08:52
But you like cheeseburgers more than bananas?

00:08:55
Absolutely.

00:08:56
So bananas are non preferred.

00:08:59
Sure.

00:09:00
Because you'd rather have a cheeseburger.

00:09:01
Do you see, like, there's.

00:09:03
There's a level of what is even non preferred mean? Because it's in.

00:09:08
It's a.

00:09:08
It's relationship to other things. Right.

00:09:11
So I. That description, to me, doesn't even make sense.

00:09:17
Right.

00:09:17
And then the second thing that I want to comment on is, you said, I understand that there's some curriculums that people are beholden to, and I would say that that is somewhat true and that there are standards kids are expected to learn, but how we deliver those, that content and how we design those.

00:09:36
Experiences can vary very widely.

00:09:42
Very, very widely. So, like, for instance, if I didn't really know or care about, you know, what's the difference? Or how to navigate around a town.

00:09:54
And read a map.

00:09:56
I don't. Why do I care about this?

00:09:58
I don't know.

00:09:58
I have Google Maps. What do I have to. Well, we could make a map.

00:10:02
And again, you know where I'm going.

00:10:03
Robots could drive around the map. And now suddenly, I've made that experience more fun. Or, oh, spelling. Gosh, I gotta do the spelling activity.

00:10:11
But we could put letters on the.

00:10:12
Ground, or we could hide them around, or people could hold those letters and you could give them commands to move to make the words. There's different ways to design the experience. So that something that is, like, maybe.

00:10:26
A little bit more dry or maybe.

00:10:28
A little bit.

00:10:31
I don't know, less interesting can be made more interesting.

00:10:37
Completely agree, Chris. I'm like, I'm not the expert at schools. You are. So when people say that to me, I'm just kind of like, yes, but we know that communication, how communication develops for an emerging communicator. And so, like, if there's not motivation, we're not gonna get it.

00:10:54
And so, like, yes, like, sure, there's a curriculum and academic goals and all these things, but if we don't have communication, then we can't get to it. We can't get there. And so it's like, you know, we know that there has to be some type of motivation for communication to happen, especially for kids, where communication is one of their biggest challenges. It's one of the hardest things that we ask them to do. So in the initial stages of language development, it's like, we need to make sure that we're making it fun and motivating and exciting and inspiring and empowering and all the things.

00:11:28
And so I feel like I've been in so many IEP meetings, and what I hear is, well, the way we have to do things at school is very different than the way you have to do things at home. And so we have to do things a certain way, and we have to make sure it's related to curriculum and standards. And I'm like, I get it. But, like, also, you could be more fun.

00:11:53
Absolutely.

00:11:54
All right, let me ask you a follow up question. How did you approach it with this teacher to change the goal so that they didn't dig their heels in?

00:12:02
I mean, so with the teacher that I was meeting with, it was. It's still a work in progress. I feel like I'm, like, chipping away like a glacier. I'm like, okay, like, maybe we made some progress here. You know, I keep going back to this idea that communication has to be intrinsically motivating for kids.

00:12:21
And if we're not seeing communication, the first thing that we need to ask ourselves is their motivation. And if there's not, then how can we infuse motivation into what we're doing? And so for this specific teacher, I was like, let's talk about one of the tasks that you need them to do. And they're like, oh, it always goes back to weather and morning meeting stuff. I'm just like, but let's make morning meeting fun with, like, a fun gif of crazy weather.

00:12:49
Like, you know, it's just like, making it meaningful and silly and unexpected, you know? It's just like, it's hard, though, like, to teach someone how to be fun. Chris I think that's what I've learned is, like, not everyone's fun and not everyone thinks through a fun lens, but growth mindset, you could start being more fun. Like, there's ways that you can start being more fun. I feel like it could be a cha cha cha, could be a goal.

00:13:14
How do I make this lesson more fun? Chat GPT that could be your goal.

00:13:18
To be more fun.

00:13:19
It's funny you say that, because that's something I've been thinking that we should talk a whole other banter about. So let's tease that as another banter. And then you mentioned chat GPT. That's exactly where I was going, is like, all right, I've written this goal and they've mastered this goal. Could you take that goal, put it in the chat GPT and say, what could be the next goal?

00:13:39
Right?

00:13:40
And the same, same.

00:13:41
Another problem that we see a lot.

00:13:42
Is people write goals and there's it's completely immeasurable. There's all these different ways you can measure it, or it's too subjective, or.

00:13:50
You'Re trying to measure nine different things in one goal.

00:13:52
It's like, can you make this measurable?

00:13:54
Right?

00:13:54
Can you rewrite it? So I think those are two strategies where you could use generative AI to help you write more precise and effective goals.

00:14:03
I love that. Chris. Yes. I'm, like, using AI as much as possible in my work, and I am always still thinking about new ways to to use it. And I definitely feel like we need to have another banter dedicated to all the AI stuff that we're doing well.

00:14:20
And I want to have a banter about having fun. That's really what I've been thinking about. So stay tuned.

00:14:27
We will talk about that in the future, because right now we have to get to our interview.

00:14:32
It's so interesting that you were saying.

00:14:34
Rachel, that it's preferred to be everyone together and talk about it before the IEP meeting. But sometimes schedules are what they are and you can't always get together, and that is certainly what happened with this particular interview. We were trying to get all four of us together, but the people that we interviewed are over in England, and then there's me in Virginia and you in Hawaii, and time zones worked against us, so it turned out that you.

00:15:02
Couldn'T be there, and it was just me.

00:15:04
So without further ado, here's our interview, I guess my interview with Beth Molam and Joanna Holmes.

00:15:21
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00:15:53
Talkingwithtech now let's head back into the episode.

00:16:05
Welcome to the Talking with Tech podcast. My name is Chris Bugaj and today I'm joined not with Rachel Madel. She was supposed to be here, but she had some stuff come up in her life that she couldn't make it. So I'm here flying solo but with two special guests, Beth and Joanna. I'm going to let them introduce themselves and kick us off.

00:16:25
So, Beth, Joanna, tell us a little.

00:16:28
Bit about who you are and what you do.

00:16:34
Hello, I'm Beth.

00:16:36
I'm a master's student doing social policy.

00:16:42
Research in my spare time.

00:16:46
I'm a trustee of communication matters, which.

00:16:49
Is the UK branch of Isaac.

00:16:52
I'm the patron of a charity called one Voice. One voice work with children and young people who use AAC along with their families. I'm on the committee of the International.

00:17:08
Communication Rights alliance, whose role is to operate the United Nations Convention of Persons with Disabilities.

00:17:19
Communication rights, that's a complex type.

00:17:28
But.

00:17:28
Basically it means use of AAC for everyone who needs it. I have a blog under my own.

00:17:35
Name and I can be found on social media.

00:17:41
Yeah, and I'm Joe, or Joanna is.

00:17:45
My full name, but most people call me Jo. I'm a parent carer and I've got a background in speech and language therapy as my career. I have a little girl, Lucy, who is nine years old, which I can't quite believe. She has complex communication needs and they're that's to do with complex physical and learning needs that ever arisen from a genetic diagnosis. She's learning AAC as one of the ways that she communicates.

00:18:20
And I write a blog and do some social media as Mummy versus AAC.

00:18:25
So that's a little bit about me and Joanna.

00:18:28
We go back a little ways. I feel like we connected over the podcast and you commenting on the podcast and giving input and talking about experiences. I specifically remember me sharing an experience where I was in a situation where I was like, do I go up and say hi? You just go up and say hi.

00:18:46
And you were saying, well, here's how.

00:18:48
I would handle that situation, Chris so we bonded over the podcast. You commented on some of the episodes, gave us some feedback, and it was really great to get to know you that way. That's how I feel like I know your daughter just a little bit is through some of the stories you've shared through the podcast. So Beth, you are prolific in your work, working with Isaac and everything you just mentioned in your bio. But I'm interested in learning more about your journey with AAC.

00:19:18
Let's talk about your history with AAC, and then Joanna, if you wouldn't mind following up with that same question.

00:19:27
Yeah.

00:19:29
I have cerebral palsy, dysartrics, speech and hearing impairment. My speech is very difficult to understand.

00:19:40
But in context my family get around 70% of what I say, but it is extremely effortful and being understood depends on all sorts of factors, from my health to the environment I am in.

00:19:59
Those that dont know me find me unintelligible.

00:20:04
I think first it is important to say that I am nearly 30.

00:20:10
My AAC journey started 27 years ago and things were very different then.

00:20:19
I was assessed for and received my.

00:20:23
First powered AAC device the week I started school at the age of four. Initially, this was a symbol based system with words below each picture.

00:20:37
By six or seven I was using.

00:20:40
Those same symbols with word prediction.

00:20:44
Then by nine I moved over to.

00:20:47
A text based system.

00:20:50
Early on I realized that I had.

00:20:52
To take responsibility for my own communication.

00:20:56
Choices, deciding in different scenarios and with.

00:21:01
Different people if I would try to speak or use some form of AAC.

00:21:08
But to reinforce what Joe was saying. For me, communication has always been about being creative and flexible, using all the resources, tools and props available in everyday life, not just a piece of technology.

00:21:27
Or a letter card. I think one thing I'd like to reinforce is that I view my communication journey every day as an evolution. I don't feel I will ever reach my final destination.

00:21:44
Learning to use AAC is a labor of love. It takes hours of practice and resilience for the user, their families and their support networks. For all of us, whoever we are.

00:22:01
Our communication varies and changes with our.

00:22:04
Environment, which I find makes it so.

00:22:08
Exciting and compelling to keep on working hard.

00:22:13
In the last couple of years, I've.

00:22:16
Had increasing issues with my speech production due to overuse and fatigue of my.

00:22:23
Voice all I can say is I.

00:22:25
Am so grateful to have AAC in my communication. Honorary.

00:22:31
I use it from choice these days.

00:22:34
For nearly every interaction.

00:22:40
Joanna, let me respond to that real.

00:22:42
Quick before you go. Let me just say, Beth, I feel like that has been a growth for me over the last, definitely six years of the podcast. But beyond that, where being a speech therapist supporting children and families, and then assistive technology supporting children and families, I was often hyper focused on finding the thing. Like, if I find this the thing, that'll be what people use most frequently, and we'd be looking at the system. And in fact, that word system I would often mean as the app, the app that you would use.

00:23:22
But what you just said has certainly resonated with me and been my evolution of a growth of myself is that everybody uses all the stuff, and that's the system. And the system is never the system. It will always continue to grow and evolve and change as technology changes, or as you change, as your body changes, as the people around you change. You might use different things at different times. So all of that is constantly in flux, not wildly throw it up in the air, and it's in like a mass mess.

00:23:54
There's a system to it, there's a. But it's always evolving.

00:23:59
Is that fair?

00:24:01
Beth is not.

00:24:02
Yeah.

00:24:05
Joanna? Yeah.

00:24:07
Beth, do you want to add anything else about that?

00:24:10
About the evolution of things?

00:24:15
No, you're good. Good.

00:24:18
All right.

00:24:20
So, yeah, so, a little bit about our journey with ase. So I was a speech and language therapist, not currently registered.

00:24:30
I might be again soon, that's all a bit up in the air.

00:24:34
But in the past, my work had intersected a bit with AAC in a few different ways, but it wasn't really.

00:24:40
A specialism of mine. And then after Lucy was born and.

00:24:45
We began to sort of understand what her needs might be, I did a bit of information gathering, kind of started ringing all my friends who did work in AAC and learnt about things like core vocabulary approaches.

00:24:58
And I also did some work with.

00:25:01
Adults with learning disabilities who were using AAC.

00:25:07
And really, since she was quite little.

00:25:09
We'Ve been giving Lucy the chance to learn ase, along with kind of, I've called them in my little notes here that I've written, non AAC approaches, kind.

00:25:19
Of maybe depends on how you define.

00:25:21
AAC, because a lot of definitions include everything, don't they include gestures and facial expression? Everything.

00:25:29
But I find that we've been, we.

00:25:31
Use a lot of things, like just observing her communication, observing her sensory world.

00:25:37
Thinking, about tuning into her some intensive.

00:25:40
Interaction type approaches where we're tuning very.

00:25:44
Directly into Lucy, not always using power or paper based, kind of more formal ase. And I'm increasingly thinking about how AAC.

00:25:57
Fits as part of this big set of skills.

00:26:03
And that's actually how Beth and I came to start chatting together and working.

00:26:09
Together, that we had this grounding of.

00:26:11
Agreement about this sort of really multimodal nature of communication.

00:26:17
And there were times when those paper empowered AAC options just, they didn't necessarily add anything to communication. And there were moments where actually, with attuned partners at home in particular situations.

00:26:32
Beth were getting on just fine. And so that's where our, that's where.

00:26:38
Our collaboration started, really, wasn't it? It was just kind of chatting about.

00:26:42
There's more than just the apps and.

00:26:44
The pieces of paper, which symbols are.

00:26:47
Letters on them, and really trying to think really broadly about communication skills and.

00:26:52
The skills of partners.

00:26:54
So.

00:26:56
Yeah, well, okay, that brings us kind.

00:26:58
Of to part of your journey was meeting each other and having sort of common experiences. And, and part of that seems to be this helping educate communication partners. That's part of the, of the entire experience. So that led to a presentation of sorts that you put together. So let's talk about that.

00:27:20
You put together a presentation about communication partners and it talks about communication rich.

00:27:25
Environment.

00:27:28
Like from the early stages of life and beyond. So what does that mean exactly? What do you tell us a little bit about that presentation and what that concept means of a communication rich environment?

00:27:41
Yeah, shall I start off, Beth?

00:27:45
So the presentation we did was a presentation at the Communication Matters conference, which is the Isaac branch UK Isaac branch conference in Leeds last year.

00:27:58
And it arose from us having those conversations about the broad multimodal communication and.

00:28:05
Also what communication partners need and what different communication partners need. And it's interesting you picked up on that point about the early years and communication rich environment, and we talked a bit about what that was like with.

00:28:21
And without AAC, and I mean with.

00:28:25
And without within the same family. So the times that you do have and the times that you don't have AAC.

00:28:32
And I think one of the things.

00:28:33
We'Re both passionate about is that multimodal nature of communication and communication development, which.

00:28:38
Happens in a much wider context than just ase tools. I'm going to hand over to Beth because she's got some interesting observations and things to say about that.

00:28:53
As I mentioned, I didn't have any.

00:28:55
Form of AAC until I was four.

00:28:58
But what I did of was what.

00:29:00
I call a communication rich home environment.

00:29:05
I was read to daily and I.

00:29:08
Love books from an early age.

00:29:11
One of my earliest memories is the.

00:29:14
Little amphonics frieze around my bedroom wall.

00:29:18
On how mum and I would talk.

00:29:20
About the letters and pictures.

00:29:24
There were Alphabet fridge magnets in the kitchen.

00:29:29
I copied everything I saw to the best of my ability.

00:29:33
I particularly liked when I was two playing hairdresses. I'm surprised my parents were not bald.

00:29:41
And bruised with how I pulled their.

00:29:44
Hair and hit their heads with my toy hair dryer. Part of this roleplay was asking questions about holidays, weekends, and I had a.

00:29:56
Diary where I always made the next appointment.

00:30:01
Here I'd like to talk about something.

00:30:04
We call family magic.

00:30:08
We are building relationships and ways of.

00:30:11
Communicating from before we are even born. In the early months of life, we are using body language and facial expressions to communicate with those closest to us.

00:30:26
And this never stops. As we grow in our home environments, we create our own family magic, communicating humor and emotion through a look, an.

00:30:39
Eye roll, or a gesture.

00:30:43
Multimodal communication is not just about voice and words, but about everything that supports.

00:30:51
Each interaction and helps us create meaning.

00:30:56
The other thing I would say is.

00:30:58
That in fast moving environments it can be difficult to always get a word in edgeways when you use AAC.

00:31:07
This means that I have spent much.

00:31:10
More time observing others, their body language.

00:31:15
How they express their emotions and of course I am a lip reader too, so I watch peoples faces all the time. I think all of this has set.

00:31:29
Me up for communicating in everyday life.

00:31:32
Ive learned by observing other AAC users and adopted strategies I think will work for me. Im a keen public speaker, so spend.

00:31:45
Time evaluating how others present and have again drawn on this to help me develop my own communications skills.

00:31:55
Maybe my best example is from the.

00:31:58
Paralympics in Tokyo in 2021.

00:32:04
I competed in the sport at Bocca for great Britain, facilitated on court by a sports assistant. Their role was to work under direction and they were not allowed to communicate in any way. In addition, there was not time to.

00:32:25
Use AAC when competing as you play against the clock. So all my non verbal communication came to the fore to ensure my assistant and I were efficient and effective communicators during match play.

00:32:48
Beth, I want to comment on all of that.

00:32:50
So the first thing that comes to.

00:32:52
My mind is that any communication partner.

00:32:55
And if you were to spend more time with that communication partner versus a different communication partner where you spend less time, you can start to learn the nonverbal cues and what they mean. The sounds that they make. And I mean, like, my wife and I will be able to look at each other and. Or make a sound to each other and kind of know what we're thinking, what we're trying to express occasionally.

00:33:23
Like, you know, like we're at a.

00:33:25
Party or something, and I'll be. I'll give her the eyeballs, you know, and she'll be like, let's go. It's time to go. Yeah, right. Okay.

00:33:31
Let's go. Hey, how did you know? Oh, I just know that look, I knew what you were thinking, but that comes with years of study and knowing each other. Right? Where if it was, um, Joanna and I, and I'm giving her the eyeball.

00:33:46
Chris, what's up with you?

00:33:47
Why are you. Why are you staring at me like that? Right, so, um, that idea of building that relationship from the beginning and having that communication rich environment from the beginning.

00:33:58
Um, helps build those relationships.

00:34:00
Is that fair?

00:34:01
Is that.

00:34:04
Um.

00:34:05
And it takes time. Right.

00:34:07
But. So we start with intentionality at the beginning. Like, if people were listening to this podcast going, well, what's my takeaway? Like, spend time. Yes, exactly.

00:34:15
Spend time and accept all the modalities. Is that the big takeaways?

00:34:24
Joanna's nodding yes, absolutely.

00:34:28
Yes. Yeah, definitely.

00:34:37
I would concur with that. And I think one of the things that I've thought about quite a lot is how, as therapists and ase professionals.

00:34:50
And the ase community generally, how well we necessarily do at building families confidence in looking at all of communication.

00:35:06
And I think it's something I worry a little bit about.

00:35:10
Often, the messaging is around.

00:35:13
AAC must always be available all the.

00:35:15
Time, and you must model all the.

00:35:19
Time, because that's how it's going to work. And actually, I did a little piece of work. I did a presentation at AAC in.

00:35:25
The cloud, and I just googled AAC advice for parents. And then I did, I looked at.

00:35:33
The top, I think it was like the top 17 hits, and did a little word call out, looking at the themes that came through.

00:35:39
And the big, big words in that word cloud were model language and always available.

00:35:48
Tucked away in the word cloud were.

00:35:50
Things like accessing support groups and acknowledging.

00:35:56
That it's quite challenging to do AAC. And what that made me really think.

00:36:00
About is we know that in many, many parts of the world, there aren't.

00:36:06
Good services for people who want to use ase.

00:36:08
So if you've got, you know, if.

00:36:10
You'Re there with your, like, two, three.

00:36:12
Year old who's got complex communication needs.

00:36:14
And you have heard this thing about AAC. What do I need to do?

00:36:18
All you see is model language needs.

00:36:21
To be there all the time. It's a massive pressure.

00:36:25
And also, you're missing all that, what Beth has described as family magic. I think, I really worry that people.

00:36:34
Are going to get those messages and think, well, I have to do that all the time. And I've fallen into this as well. I must do this modeling all the time. And you just miss so much of the richness of nonverbal communication and you miss so much of the joy of just being together. If you're thinking, oh, well, I could.

00:36:50
Have modeled that word, then doesn't matter.

00:36:54
You had a wonderful time together. And I worry about the pressure on parents, and I worry about the impact on their mental health, really, and on kids mental health, because actually that connectedness.

00:37:07
And that feeling of safety together is.

00:37:10
Just, that's the bottom line. That's the most important thing before anything else.

00:37:16
And I think as a field, I.

00:37:21
Mean, AAC is brilliant. I love it. I see great progress with Lucy. I have brilliant conversations with Beth because of AAC, but I think it's really important to contextualize it in, like, the whole of communication and the whole of connection.

00:37:38
And I think that's something, that's where Beth and I really connected about placing it in a wider context.

00:37:46
So I have a friend, her name is Kathy Howery, up in Canada. She's a little bit famous in the AAC space, but this is exactly her point. Over and over again, I'm hearing her words ring through as you're talking about. It's about the relationships first. And don't get hung up.

00:38:05
Yes, yes, model, yes, AAC, yes. As much as possible. Have it around, but don't get hyper focused on, oh, I should have modeled this word or that word if that word is so great. Right. If the magic is there, don't lose the magic, because you're counting numbers or counting words or looking for a word and you're missing the smile or the laugh.

00:38:23
You know, that's where the magic really happens in life in general, not just the, you know, it's really like anything. Yes, you're going to put some work into it, but have fun while you're doing it and build these relationships, because that's what makes life worth living.

00:38:41
It's so funny you brought that up.

00:38:42
Chris, because I've got little notes here.

00:38:44
About things I was going to say.

00:38:45
And actually, I didn't say it, but I've got a line that says, Kathy Howery has mentioned this on the podcast too. It's one of my favorite episodes.

00:38:53
So here we are talking about communication partners and relationships. What are some of the common misconceptions that AAcUs often encounter when maybe you could address with communication partners?

00:39:08
The biggest challenge for me is around people seeing my technology and not me out in the community.

00:39:17
There is a big assumption that a.

00:39:19
Wheelchair and then a communication aid means cognitive impairment. That means I am often patronized and.

00:39:30
Treated as if Im three.

00:39:32
The result is I make it my.

00:39:34
Job to change these perceptions one person at a time.

00:39:40
But even in the AAC world, I.

00:39:43
Sometimes hear the voice of surprise when people hear, I am a masters student.

00:39:50
A Paralympian that im an active advocate.

00:39:54
For AAC users and ive spoken about community education rights at the United nations.

00:40:02
The other challenge for me is around.

00:40:05
The assumptions people make now and then we get media representation of people who use AAC.

00:40:16
In the UK we have a retired.

00:40:18
Sportsperson who is now using. I guess I've started getting questions about why he's so slick and quick when people see him on television.

00:40:31
Yet it seems by comparison to take.

00:40:34
Ages for me to respond to a question.

00:40:39
Of course, in the AAC world, we.

00:40:42
All know the answer is pre programming versus spontaneity of communication.

00:40:50
I guess this is a nicer challenge as it means the general population are.

00:40:56
Becoming more aware of AAC now. We need to educate them in how it really works.

00:41:07
Yeah, Beth, I see a lot of.

00:41:09
People checking their assumptions more now than.

00:41:13
Ever before in my history, you know, not just about AAC, but about people in general, you know, that maybe I shouldn't make these assumptions based on how you look or. Yeah, I guess really how you look.

00:41:26
You know, so I hope things are.

00:41:30
Getting better in that regard. That said, it seems like we have a long way to go, right. If you still are meeting people who live and work in the AAC space and they're not checking their assumptions. Right. So what are your thoughts, Joanna?

00:41:45
Yeah, I think I'm very much in.

00:41:47
Agreement that awareness is really building now.

00:41:53
In fact, the same sportsman that you talked about about is a sportsman in a spot that I particularly love and go and watch quite a bit. And then my husband and Lucy, we sat at a game a while ago.

00:42:04
And somebody came up and said, oh, is that like what Rob borrower's got? Which is really cool, that it's really a lot more common. I think one of the things that.

00:42:17
A misconception that I think is quite prevalent is that if you've got the.

00:42:21
Device, then you can use it. And that's something that I see that.

00:42:27
Oh, you know, when we talk about Lucy having that device, well, I want it brilliant, because she'll be able to tell everybody what she thinks.

00:42:33
Well, she's going to need to learn.

00:42:35
To use the device and then use the. Learn the language to tell everyone what she thinks.

00:42:40
It's a long job.

00:42:43
So I think that's one of the misconceptions that I see, and I think that's fed into by the media sometimes. Like, we got this device, and it was.

00:42:51
Whoa.

00:42:51
It was miraculous. And suddenly, you know, we can communicate all the time. And for some people, that is the case, and that's fantastic.

00:43:00
But, I mean, Beth described her journey.

00:43:03
And that's for Beth, who doesn't have the same learning disabilities and cognitive impairments that Lucy has.

00:43:10
So I think that the misconception that it's quick and that it's a quick solution is still pretty prevalent.

00:43:19
Yeah, I always like the analogy while disliking it. One analogy and like another. So let me get your opinions on this. An analogy we often hear is like, especially in the media, is that it's like a light bulb or a key. And once this technology was given, it was like turning a key, and the door was unlocked, and the language is unlocked.

00:43:41
But you said, joanna, that happens.

00:43:45
You know, there's sometimes that people can just pick it up and. And like, like someone who's great at music, you know, like a Mozart could.

00:43:55
Just, you know, pick out, you know.

00:43:57
Sit down in front of the piano and start playing. But that's, like, very rare. Right. Otherwise, the other analogy I would use is more like building a house, where it's a whole team of people really passionate about putting things together in the right order, making mistakes sometimes and having to rip things up and bring them back. And the house is never finished.

00:44:15
Right. Anyone who lives in a house will tell you there's always construction projects happening, and it never is really done. And you're constantly building together. And that gives you a better impression that it takes a long time, word by word, experience by experience, brick by brick, nail by nail, and it's never really done. So what do you think about those?

00:44:33
Beth, what do you think about that?

00:44:35
Is it a better analogy that building.

00:44:37
A house is a better analogy than opening a key?

00:44:45
I.

00:44:48
Like it.

00:45:07
Something.

00:45:10
That I.

00:45:15
Use.

00:45:19
Is from my of it takes.

00:46:10
10,000.

00:46:22
Hours. Two, get to the top of your.

00:46:45
Game.

00:46:49
And learning to use AAC, it's exactly the same. I like it.

00:47:23
Or something that I use is from my paralympic journey of it takes 10,000 hours to get to the top of your game. And learning to use AAC is exactly the same.

00:47:37
Yeah, yeah.

00:47:38
That whole. That Malcolm Gladwell concept of putting the time in that 10,000 hours to get to become really good at something. Yeah, for sure.

00:47:47
Joanna, any other thoughts?

00:47:50
I think best sum that up well, and I like the house analogy.

00:47:54
I've not heard that one. Yeah.

00:47:56
And especially because that gives a sense.

00:47:58
Of it's never finished. Like I say, something always falls off.

00:48:04
Yeah, right. There's always maintenance and there's always new additions, you might add. All right, so Rachel and I were flipping through the presentation and something that caught our eye in your presentation, you sent it to us ahead of time. We were looking through. It was the concept of AAC saw of opportunity.

00:48:22
It was a new phrase for me. Hadn't seen it before. So can you talk a little bit about what that means and what the significance is of that term with regard to communication?

00:48:39
Opportunity came out of a discussion with Joe about how often there is an.

00:48:45
Imbalance in communication for AAC users, that.

00:48:50
The communication partner often leads each interaction and the AAC user follows, answers questions and demonstrates functional skills. Sometimes we forget that communication is about.

00:49:08
Give and take, that there should be.

00:49:11
A power balance between each person in an interaction.

00:49:17
For us, the AAC user is also.

00:49:20
A communication partner and should be given the opportunity to develop the same skills over time as everyone else. Communication should be about turn taking, sharing.

00:49:35
Initiating topics, choosing when to change the topic and more. But it should also be about having.

00:49:45
The ability to tailor the opportunity to the situation.

00:49:50
Ultimately, we want the AAC user and.

00:49:54
Their communication partner to have equal power in every interaction. This will of course be a work.

00:50:02
In practice, especially for children as they.

00:50:06
Develop their communication skills.

00:50:10
But over time, with good facilitation and growing confidence and competence, an equal partnership in each interaction is the ultimate aim. Because we use AAC and often have a physical disability, we get opportunities for.

00:50:31
Quality conversation with others that maybe dont exist in the same way for many children.

00:50:39
For example, most younger children will learn.

00:50:43
To play alone and entertain themselves for short periods.

00:50:49
In contrast, an AAC user often finds play has to be more structured, which.

00:50:56
Means quality time for using AAC to develop those essential skills that create an equal power balance between the AAC user and their communication partner over time.

00:51:16
Beth, I think a strategy people could actually use here is measuring that seesaw.

00:51:25
That AAC saw, meaning measuring the opportunities that are being given and specifically designing experiences where you're trying to extend those.

00:51:35
Opportunities, all that balanced with not losing.

00:51:38
The magic of the moment. Maybe it only needs to be like, I smiled at you, I smiled back, and we're laughing now, and maybe that's all you need. It's still balanced, even though it's short, but still trying to measure the opportunities and the opportunity costs that might be.

00:51:53
Going by when you are just plugging questions.

00:51:59
As you were saying that, Beth, I was sort of reflecting on, well, this is sort of a weird situation in that we're doing a podcast, but that's what I'm doing. Like, I'm asking you questions and you're answering them and it's in, this isn't a very artificial thing that we're doing. You know, it's not a natural conversation, but I feel like this is what happens a lot in special ed. You call it send over there in UK, send programs or send experiences, but special education, where it's often dominated by one person, usually an adult, plugging questions away at someone else. So measuring that could be a real good, like, okay, how often am I doing that and how can I minimize that to try and measure that balance?

00:52:44
What are your thoughts, Beth? Joanna?

00:52:49
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really.

00:52:53
Nice way of thinking about that model, actually kind of look, looking and using it as an assessment tool for the environment. Almost like, is this a balanced environment and who's getting the most turns? Because I think part of that balance.

00:53:11
It'S partly about one person gaining skills.

00:53:14
But it's also about another person, maybe a more experienced communicator. If you're talking about young children in.

00:53:21
In special schools or SDN provision, it's about those more skilled partners observing and adjusting their communication.

00:53:31
And they're creating the balance not because one person's skills are necessarily increasing, but because another's going, okay, these are the skills this person has. They're reaching for that tie. They're really loving spinning that. So what I'm going to do is.

00:53:46
Come in, join them spinning it, see.

00:53:48
What'S going on there.

00:53:50
And that's balanced communication, that's sharing a moment.

00:53:53
And I love the idea. I really like the idea, Chris, of.

00:53:56
Maybe that being a way of almost a tool for like observing your own practice. Am I creating balance in this interaction.

00:54:08
Or am I taking all the turns and am I building expectation instead?

00:54:13
That's a really, that's an interesting way.

00:54:15
Of thinking about it. That's good.

00:54:16
Not, not how we originally thought about it, is it really?

00:54:22
Well, I feel like if something is.

00:54:23
Going to change, measuring it and reflecting on that is a way to start to try and balance it. And I think of that even as.

00:54:31
My own, like my own child, I.

00:54:32
Have a teenager, and I don't want to be the dad that comes in and tells you what to do all the time. And I'm telling you, and you know what you should do. And it would be completely unbalanced if it was just me. Every interaction was me sort of telling you what to do, you know, or for firing questions at you over and over. So looking for that balance in the force makes a lot of sense to me.

00:54:52
Yeah.

00:54:54
All right.

00:54:54
So with that said, what are some.

00:54:57
Of the highlights of that presentation for different communication partners? Could you share some of the insights on how the role of those partners has evolved over time?

00:55:12
Yeah, I think it was the way you phrased the question about this being about how partners evolve over time.

00:55:23
I thought that was really interesting because that got me thinking about some of.

00:55:28
Lucy's kind of peer communication partners and.

00:55:33
Some kind of friends that we have who have similar age kids. So they've grown up with Lucy and observing those different ways that they interact.

00:55:41
With her as they are growing and learning themselves.

00:55:46
So it kind of starts out as any young children playing together, they're kind of a bit parallel. And she's kind of there.

00:55:52
And, yeah, she's there.

00:55:55
She's Lucy. It's fine.

00:55:56
She's in my environment.

00:55:57
And then beginning to have a little bit of curiosity. And then as they get a bit.

00:56:01
Older, they start to ask a few questions about it.

00:56:05
And then with AAC.

00:56:08
What I've noticed.

00:56:09
Is you can see that they kind of, like, they want to have a.

00:56:12
Go, especially when the iPad's out. Okay, what's this going to do?

00:56:19
And I've really encouraged that, actually.

00:56:21
I've encouraged them because Lucy's okay with it.

00:56:24
She's not feeling. If she was showing me signs, it was like, I don't want people touching this thing.

00:56:29
But she loves it.

00:56:30
And they're chatting away and they're constructing sentences, and they sometimes do things like say I love you and things, and, like, they'll put that in her device and say it to her. And I think they go through that phase, like five, six, seven.

00:56:46
But then as they get seven and older and they realize that actually this is quite different and that there aren't.

00:56:53
That many people who communicate that way, but actually they know somebody quite unusual.

00:56:59
They start to reflect a little bit.

00:57:01
More on their own skills, and they ask a few more questions, and then.

00:57:06
It ultimately can begin to be kind of advocates for Lucy as well as good communication partners.

00:57:13
And it's been really interesting seeing how.

00:57:16
Her peers have grown with her over time.

00:57:22
And I don't think I'd have thought of that if you hadn't phrased the.

00:57:24
Question partners over time, actually.

00:57:27
And I just hope that continues into their teens and into adulthood because she's going to have those amazing peers who've.

00:57:35
Grown up with her, and it's just.

00:57:38
So interesting to see how they change. And she just has such a good time with them.

00:57:42
She loves interacting with them.

00:57:44
Well, Joanna, you're talking about friends, right? And something we've mentioned.

00:57:49
Why would I say peers? Friends.

00:57:51
Well, friends and peers. I mean, both, but, um. But, but because something we've been focusing on, at least in our neck of the woods. But I think it's been. We've been bringing it up on the podcast quite a bit.

00:58:01
Is you. You only have so many minutes as an educator to work with kids, and where are the best use of those minutes? Is it to teach a word maybe? Or is it maybe to. Could you get maybe a bigger bang for your buck?

00:58:15
Is teaching the communication partners that are going to be with them for many of the formative younger years and maybe beyond, how to look for that balance that we were talking about and provide opportunities for that balance? Does that extend the learning while having fun, those magic moments of being friends and saying I love you and goofing around about Taylor Swift or whatever?

00:58:44
Do you get more bang for your.

00:58:47
Buck, more good experiences, if you spend.

00:58:52
Your time working there than trying to teach one new core word? Do you know, maybe it's both. Beth, what are your thoughts on the evolution of communication partners over time and the importance of communication partners?

00:59:08
I live independently, supported by a team of personal assistants. When someone new starts, not only do.

00:59:18
They have to learn the role, but they also need to learn to communicate with me.

00:59:24
In all of my different environments, I.

00:59:28
Prefer to recruit people with little or no previous experience so they can learn to do things my way.

00:59:38
They start off needing to have their hand held, being taught the importance of patience and creating a nanosecond pause for.

00:59:49
Me to process what I want to say. Then how to be an active listener.

00:59:56
A role model for others, and a facilitator. Being a top notch communication partner for.

01:00:04
An AAC user is not for the faint hearted.

01:00:09
It is a skilled role, and it.

01:00:11
Requires dedication and diligence to become proficient.

01:00:17
Often we hear people supporting an AAC user, referred to as a communication partner. Joe and I both agree that everyone.

01:00:29
We interact with is a communication partner, including other AAC users.

01:00:36
The role is not one way as.

01:00:39
Every interaction has a giver and a receiver of information.

01:00:44
For instance, that can be the school.

01:00:47
Bus driver, the librarian, a child. In fact, if you talk to your pets, I guess they may be classed as communication partners too.

01:01:00
Although the goldfish doesnt usually answer back. What we need is respect and patience.

01:01:09
When we are out in the wider.

01:01:11
Community scaffolding and help with structure when.

01:01:15
We are in school and learning something.

01:01:18
New, then with those who know us.

01:01:21
Best, like family and personal assistants, the ability to learn to be exceptional communication partners.

01:01:34
So Beth, I love how you frame that because you're saying like a communication.

01:01:38
Partner is a skill, right. And in the same way that playing.

01:01:43
Tennis is a skill. And I'm not really good at tennis, but some people who may put more hours in it and reflect on it and practice at it, they get better at it and they get better at playing tennis, they get better at being an effective communication partner.

01:01:55
So with that in mind, right, one.

01:01:58
Of the aspects of your presentation was to give some sort of tips on, okay, you said, Beth, I have this new person come in, they need to kind of get up and running and you can mold them the way you want. What are some effective tips that you would give to communication partners to AAC users? And could you share some personal experiences or at least one personal experience where these tips were particularly effective?

01:02:28
A recent success was last term at university.

01:02:32
I was on a module with a lot of international students.

01:02:38
Initially in group discussion, I found it difficult to contribute. By the end of the semester, most.

01:02:46
Of them were unaware they had taken on board these tips and were happy.

01:02:51
To let me contribute, wait for me.

01:02:54
To speak, possibly recap what I'd said.

01:02:58
For others and generally made themselves valuable communication partners.

01:03:04
For me, what I then noticed is.

01:03:08
They were applying this newfound knowledge with.

01:03:11
Other students, especially where English is for many of them a second language and.

01:03:18
Levelling the playing field for everyone.

01:03:24
Yeah.

01:03:25
So that skill, unlike playing tennis where.

01:03:28
It might maybe helps you in other.

01:03:30
Skills, being an effective communication partner can help you with your whole life no.

01:03:35
Matter who you're communicating with. Yeah, I could not agree more. Joanna, what's your thoughts?

01:03:43
Yeah, so I have a great example of one of the, one of the.

01:03:51
Things, so I think what we did in the presentation is we each had nine tips for communication and actually they were quite different.

01:03:58
The list of tips that Beth had.

01:04:01
Were quite different to some of the.

01:04:02
Things that I had done that helped Lucy.

01:04:05
And so for Lucy, I had things like, I really like cuddles, but don't touch me if you don't know those kinds of things.

01:04:14
But the example that I've got, which.

01:04:17
I think also speaks to the fact.

01:04:18
That everybody is a communication partner, is Beth and Lucy. When we were at a disco in.

01:04:27
The summer, so Beth mentioned she's patron of a charity called Onevoice. And one of the things that Onevoice do here in the UK is we have a residential weekend. And part of that residential weekend is a disco.

01:04:39
And it's quite loud.

01:04:42
It was a noisy, busy disco, and Beth and Lucy were next to each.

01:04:48
Other, and.

01:04:52
Lucy was kind of, it.

01:04:54
Was all a bit full on.

01:04:55
And what Lucy was doing is, I'm.

01:04:57
Going to have to explain this and I'll demonstrate it. But she was kind of, she had her tray on in front of her, sat in a wheelchair with a tray on in front of her and her communication aid, but she wasn't looking at her communication aid at all. She was staring at Beth and leaning sideways like this, staring at Beth.

01:05:15
Because.

01:05:16
That'S often how she communicates. Her most effective communication is nonverbal, really. And if she wants to engage you, she stares at you.

01:05:23
And what Beth did was she leaned over and looked at Lucy and stared.

01:05:29
And stared at Lucy, and they were.

01:05:32
Looking at each other, and it was noisy, and you couldn't have heard the devices even if they were using them. But they just had this really lovely moment of connection.

01:05:42
And so when you said, could you.

01:05:44
Share a personal experience?

01:05:45
I was like that one because I'd.

01:05:46
Put something on my list about, you know, accept unconventional ways of communicating.

01:05:53
And that was just such a lovely moment that, that brought that together. And they were both sat there and.

01:05:59
They both had the devices and they both had symbols and text and all the things that they can use for.

01:06:03
AAC didn't matter, did it, Beth?

01:06:06
Because you just stare in it.

01:06:10
You know, that just really reminds me of, you know, our podcast. We talk a lot about coaching, right? And as we're coaching other people, following their body movements is something that doesn't often come across on the podcast. You can see it. But just the fact that if someone, I'm sitting across somebody and I'm coaching them and they cross their legs, maybe I'll try and cross my legs.

01:06:30
If they lean in a little bit, then I'll try and lean in to match that nonverbal as, again, as a point of connection that we're here in doing this. Together, and you just gave another great example of that. So, okay, great ideas. The presentation has at least 18 tips, plus everything else in it. What are your hopes for the future of AAC?

01:06:52
And so maybe that's AAC, but also with communication partners. Where do you see the development of that going?

01:07:07
This is quite a tricky question. I think we have all talked about raising AAC awareness for a long time.

01:07:17
I often like an AAC awareness to a ripple effect.

01:07:23
Imagine dropping a pebble into water and seeing the ripples spread out around where.

01:07:29
The pebble went in. I see the same applies to communication partners. By this I mean we often have a high level of skills, expertise and knowledge around those closest to the AAC user. As we move further away from them, we find what was initially a large.

01:07:54
Body or swell of experience gradually flattens out until it disappears.

01:08:01
I'd love to see the swell from.

01:08:04
AAC awareness spanning out across society, so that all the ripples join up and everyone has some knowledge of what AAC is.

01:08:15
I've noticed that we are now having.

01:08:18
A flurry of more and more communication partner training becoming available.

01:08:24
So again, as more people are upskilled.

01:08:27
And confident as communication partners, then I'd hope we've find those ripples expanding in concentric circles around each AAC user until they too meet up and everyone has the basic skills to feel confident, to.

01:08:45
Interact with us wherever we meet.

01:08:50
Math.

01:08:51
This is exactly how I see things going too, and it will take some time for those ripples to happen. But what we were talking before about Lucy's peers and friends, the more experiences.

01:09:03
We can have, then when they form.

01:09:07
The next generation of adults, it all grows with them. So I'm very optimistic for the future. The same way that you sort of expressed that these ripples will continue to spread. Joanna, what are you hopes?

01:09:20
What are your hopes?

01:09:24
As is often the case when Beth just said something, it's really hard to follow because she just watch things so brilliant, brilliantly, and he's so good at creating these beautiful analogies. I love the ripple effect. I think I've touched on a little.

01:09:41
Bit earlier in the conversation.

01:09:46
I'd like to see a broader focus.

01:09:49
On communication generally, and that when we're.

01:09:53
Having conversations around AAC and what people who need AAC need that it's not just about the AAC, and I mean like the formal AAC paper power base.

01:10:02
Simply bits, texty bits that we're talking.

01:10:06
About all forms of communication, and embracing.

01:10:09
And valuing every form of communication. And then as a community, as an.

01:10:16
Ase community to begin with.

01:10:18
We're thinking broadly about that and then.

01:10:20
Sending that message out on those ripples as well.

01:10:23
Really.

01:10:24
You know, a joke we have, Rachel and I have, is that the speech.

01:10:30
Therapy community often feels like two year.

01:10:34
Olds chasing a soccer ball. So if you were to pull back the camera a little bit and look back in the past when the concept of core vocabulary came around, everybody said, now we need to do core vocabulary. Okay, yes, but we're still going to teach you other words as well. It's mostly core vocabulary, not exclusively core vocabulary. And then, like you said, modeling.

01:10:56
Right? So now the message is modeling. Right. Okay. So now we know we have to model more, and everyone chases the model.

01:11:01
But then you got Kathy Howery and like you saying, but don't lose the interaction piece. Right. And I feel like that might be. And then there's other things like that. I mean, I think language processing is another thing.

01:11:13
Like everyone just, you know, like a magnet. Let's talk about that again. Chasing the soccer ball around. I think that the next thing that I'd like for people to chase is that what I'm hearing you say, too.

01:11:27
Is, let's make it about that magic.

01:11:29
Moment that Beth said and the relationships. So that is a more holistic, whole child, whole person experience. Not just about the language, not just about the words, not just about less questions. All those are pieces of it. But putting that relationship first, is that fair?

01:11:47
Yeah. Cool.

01:11:50
Now it's all round.

01:11:53
We're all nodding here. Okay, so with that, with that said, what is on the horizon for each of you? Professionally or personally?

01:12:02
What's coming up next?

01:12:05
Okay, are you kicking off? Beth?

01:12:18
Jo and I both have incredibly busy.

01:12:21
Lives, but together we are full of ideas.

01:12:26
As Jo says, developing the AAC connection.

01:12:30
Facebook group and developing our own tools and resources for communication partners on our website.

01:12:40
Building an AAC network to share lived experiences individually.

01:12:50
My medium term focus is on my.

01:12:53
Studies and continuing my volunteer work with the wonderful AC organizations I already work with. I do quite a bit of public speaking, deliver workshops, and enjoy mentoring. I love blogging but have had reduced time with my studies, so I'm keen.

01:13:16
To get back to that.

01:13:19
I'm also just beginning writing a book.

01:13:22
About ASe from a lived experience perspective.

01:13:27
So watch this space as I am currently negotiating the title and deadlines with the publisher.

01:13:36
Long term, my plans include ways to empower other users to fulfill their own communication potential.

01:13:45
I'm not quite ready to share, but.

01:13:48
The future is looking great.

01:13:53
Awesome, exciting, exciting stuff.

01:13:56
Joanna.

01:13:58
Yeah.

01:13:59
So medium term. I have got this wonderful collaboration with.

01:14:06
Beth and I'll talk a little bit.

01:14:07
More about that in a minute. I'm also working with a lady called Sarah Hayward who is doing her PhD.

01:14:16
And she I'm working as a co.

01:14:19
Researcher with her on a project looking.

01:14:22
At relationships between parents and speech and.

01:14:25
Language therapists in AAC implementation.

01:14:28
So we did quite a lot of.

01:14:29
Data collection last year and we're moving.

01:14:33
Forward with that, a few other little presentations and things going on, and I'm hoping to write a little bit more in the longer form on the blog. I feel like last year I did a lot of quick social media stuff.

01:14:46
And that some of the things I want to talk about, I want to.

01:14:50
Go a bit long form and do a bit more writing. In terms of our collaboration.

01:14:58
We have got a website which is the aacconnection.org and we're looking at populating that with.

01:15:09
Quite a bit of content for ase users and partners. So looking at kind of curating lists.

01:15:15
Of parent of parent partner training opportunities, having a blog.

01:15:22
And our idea for the blog is that we'll invite people, so maybe if anybody's interested in writing something for it, we'll invite people to write for the blog. But there's a caveat, which is it must be a co written article. So we don't want any one therapist writing and saying this is what I did, or one parent writing and saying.

01:15:40
This is my experience must be co written, co produced and connected somehow. So we're looking to build, build that.

01:15:51
And we also have a Facebook page which we launched just after communication matters last year, which is the AAC connection.

01:16:00
Which will have a forum for discussing.

01:16:05
Communication partner ideas and thoughts.

01:16:08
And it's been brilliant, hasn't it, Beth? Just like really rich conversations about some.

01:16:15
Of the stuff that we've talked about today.

01:16:19
We have a combination of parents and.

01:16:23
AAC users and professionals and we're keen to keep, keep that open.

01:16:27
We're also keen not to talk about everything and even, you know, keep the difficult conversations on the table as well.

01:16:36
So we've had like conversations around facilitated communication and spelling to communicate and some of those more controversial methods.

01:16:42
We hopefully have created a space where people can hold different opinions and talk really openly about all the things that.

01:16:50
Impact how you that communication partner issues, really. And it's been great.

01:16:57
So recommend anybody who's interested to come.

01:17:00
Along and join us on there and.

01:17:01
Join the conversations web content probably.

01:17:05
We think maybe there'll be something on the website by the time this podcast goes out.

01:17:11
Awesome. Awesome.

01:17:12
Well, once we wrap up, feel free.

01:17:16
To send me any of these hyperlinks. I'll send them over to Luke, our podcast producer, who can put them all in the show notes. Besides, what you just mentioned is there. What are the best ways for people.

01:17:26
To connect with you if you're interested with them to connect with you?

01:17:32
Oh, no, I don't know.

01:17:33
We're not that interested in connections. Okay, so best note, she's asked me to go through these.

01:17:43
So we each have a webpage.

01:17:46
You know, Beth, I wrote down your webpage to make sure that I got it exactly right.

01:17:51
And now I can't find a piece.

01:17:53
Of paper where I wrote down whether it was.org or co dot uk where.

01:17:59
Bethmullum.Com, bethmullum.com and Beth Mulem on most of the socials. And you're on LinkedIn as well. And I'm on Mummyversus blog.

01:18:19
And I'm mummyverse at mommy versus.

01:18:22
That's versus mummy vs. AAC on, well, Instagram and Facebook. Really. I'm on x, but I don't really use it.

01:18:30
And just for spelling purposes, it's mummy.

01:18:33
Right?

01:18:33
M u m. M y.

01:18:35
Right?

01:18:36
M u m m. Yes. British way.

01:18:40
Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

01:18:42
No.

01:18:43
Mommy.

01:18:46
Beth and Joanna, thank you so much for taking your time. Thanks for putting this presentation together and for sending it to us. Thanks for your patience with us scheduling because we went. Had some roundabouts with that, so. And thank you so much.

01:19:00
Am I going to see you at Atia? Either of you coming to Atia? So it'll be virtual for a while until you can come to the States or we can come there.

01:19:11
Yeah.

01:19:12
Unless we can persuade you to come to the communication Matters conference, Chris in Leeds in September.

01:19:17
We can certainly try.

01:19:19
It's in Yorkshire, which is the best part of the UK.

01:19:22
Everybody knows that.

01:19:28
Awesome.

01:19:28
All right, well, thank you, everybody.

01:19:30
Thank you so much.

01:19:31
Thank you so much for having us, Chris.

01:19:33
I've really enjoyed this conversation.

01:19:35
Bye, Beth.

01:19:36
Nice meeting you.

01:19:40
Thank you.

01:19:43
You're welcome.

01:19:44
Bye.