Episode 309: Daniel O'Connor & Bradley Heaven: Creators of All Access Life, an Adaptive Product Nonprofit
This week, Chris interviews Daniel O’Conner and Bradley Haven of All Access Life! All Access Life is a nonprofit that showcases the latest trends and movements in adaptive products and assistive technologies on their website allaccesslife.org. Daniel & Bradley share about how they met when Daniel was Bradley's Aide in high school (Bradley has nonverbal Dyskinetic Cerebral Palsy), how they came to decide to create a nonprofit together, and how they developed their mission to share information about adaptive products. They also discuss Bradley’s AAC journey and how the technology has progressed from the switches Bradley used as a teenager to the current eye tracking he uses on his TD Pilot device.
Before the interview, Rachel shares about a family who had a very strong emotional reaction to having their child’s voice changed from a child’s voice to a teenager’s voice, and why we need to include the family and give lots of advance warning if we want to make a change to voice output for maturity purposes.
Key Ideas this Week:
🔑 We should try and spread the word about current accessibility gaming options, like Xbox Copilot, that allow people like Bradley to play video games. Accessable gaming opens up social opportunities and allow users to engage with friends and family in new ways!
🔑 A lot of companies don’t think about the fact that people with disabilities use their product. Big companies like Microsoft embracing inclusive design with their Xbox accessable controller helps move the field forward, but there is more work to be done!
🔑 Bradley says “nothing about us, without us,” meaning he wants companies who create products to get feedback from actual people with disabilities at every step of product creation.
🔑 Playing video games in schools shouldn’t be a carrot at the end of a difficult task, but rather something woven in (e.g. tallying up classroom scores on Rocket League to practice addition) to make learning more engaging.
Links from This Weeks Episode
Miles Harvey - Esports Research and Its Integration in Education (Advances in Game Based Learning)
Transcript of the Episode
Please Note: This transcript was generated using speech recognition & AI tools; it may contain some grammatical and/or spelling errors.
00:00:08
Welcome to Talking with Tech. My name is Chris Bugaj, and I'm here with Rachel Madel. Rachel, what you got for us this week?
00:00:14
I have a story, Chris, that I am super excited to kind of get your feedback on and talk through on the podcast. So I actually had this conversation with one of my clinicians, and I'm going to share kind of the story that she shared with me. So we're working with a student who we've worked with for a couple years now. And what's interesting about my practice, because I've been in private practice for over ten years now, which is insane to think about, but what that means is that I've worked with kids that are, you know, were young when I started with them, and now they're, like, transitioning now. They're like, you know, if they're male, they're, like, getting a deep voice, and they're becoming a teenager and, you know, all the kind of things that go along with that.
00:01:04
And I say that because we are coming up to some challenges in our practice and the way we're thinking about the voices on an AAC device, the voices on speech generating output devices. And I had a situation with one of my clients where my clinician started noticing, like, oh, like, the voice for his AAC is a child's voice, and he is now 16, and so can we transition his voice to a more adult sounding voice? And it was just an interesting thing that came up because my clinician's thinking, like, yes, he's growing up, and his voice is growing up, too. Right? And so she did this beautiful exercise where she was kind of showing him the different options that there were and seeing what he liked and kind of landing on one.
00:02:07
And she did this kind of throughout the course of a session with him, and then she shared with the family, like, here's kind of what we did today, and here's the new voice. And where I come in is she. And this family is so wonderful and sweet, but the family had kind of a visceral reaction to hearing him use a different voice. And when I say visceral, I mean, like, oh, my gosh, like, my baby's all grown up, and, like, I don't know if I'm ready to hear, like, the transition. And it got me thinking, you know, as kids do kids with access to verbal speech, like, we kind of subtly start hearing their voice change, and so it doesn't feel so dramatic.
00:02:53
It's not like, you know, one day they wake up and immediately they sound like an adult and so as I'm kind of having some reflections with my therapist, I'm like, we're thinking about, like, wow, this is definitely something. And she said after the fact, she's like, this is definitely something I should have included the family in. I should not have gone down this path without the family. And she, of course, shared that with the family, and they ended up actually going back to the old voice, like, the more childlike voice. And she just, like, she has been so distraught about it.
00:03:27
She's like, I felt so bad. Both mom and dad separately kind of had their own emotional reactions. And, like, I just feel like I totally should have included the caregivers in this. And I was like, you know, yes, like, what we're living and we're learning and we're reflecting on what we're doing. And honestly, I had never had a situation like that yet.
00:03:49
And I just thought it was something that was really worthwhile to share on the podcast. This idea of, you know, when voices, if we change a voice, what does that look like, and how do we have those conversations, both with families and also with our clients?
00:04:05
Let me ask a clarifying question. How old is the client now?
00:04:08
1616.
00:04:11
Okay, interesting. So let me comment on this first. I was never thinking about voice options consistently until talking to Kevin Williams. Kevin Williams said to me, he mentioned that to me at one of the atias. And I thought, okay, from now on, that goes in the consideration of selection is, does the application have what voice options does it have?
00:04:43
I mean, I was already thinking about language. I was already thinking about multi language learners. I was always thinking about how many hits does it take to get to the vocabulary. There's a whole algorithm that goes on in my head to help somebody, and then we flesh out as we have a conversation, but to help a team select. And now part of that algorithm that wasn't, it didn't exist before, but now after talking to Kevin is part of it.
00:05:08
And I think that's what that maybe is a precursor to this conversation. Because if the app itself doesn't have the options that would allow someone to choose something, then that's a restriction already. So I feel like there's a technical component there that we can be thinking about at the selection process for anybody, and then that, again, roll back in time with the parents are involved in that selection process and why aren't they? If they're not right, then we've already sort of set the seed that right? Do we have voice options and will they change?
00:05:46
Because we could ask that question years ago in the selection process so that we can say, well, remember how we, when we picked this, we were talking about those voice options. Do we all agree now's the time? Right. And the reason I was sort of asking about the age is at 18. I might say that's the age where the parents don't have a say.
00:06:08
I don't know. That's a pretty bold statement. But maybe their input is, we'll take your advice, parents, but they're going to choose the voice that they want to choose where at 16 maybe is thinking of it as a minor, then the parents have more of a, more of an actual say, if that makes sense. Again, it's a terrible way to put it. Sorry, parents.
00:06:30
Chris, what are you saying? I'm a parent. I get it. But you know what I'm saying? That line of 18.
00:06:36
And then the other thing that I think of is when we're thinking about, through the lens of ieps, we are at the age of 14, at least in the state of Virginia, but I think it's everywhere. We are thinking about transition plans. So could we start asking that question there? Hey, when do we think we're going to start thinking about what different. Different voices?
00:06:58
Even if it's not, we're going to change the voice. Now do we start asking the question so that it again prepares people to be ready for it? Because you're right. I can see how it would be such a shock. A phenomenon that happens all the time with people with their own kids.
00:07:13
Is that they, because you just said it like, oh, you're with that kid. You've been with this kid for ten years. You don't necessarily see those gradual changes unless you're measuring them. But it's someone who's, who in many cases, it's like the grandparents or an aunt and uncle who doesn't see the kid every week and maybe they see him every few months and you can say, whoa, look how tall you've gotten, right? Oh, look how deep your voice has gotten.
00:07:39
Whoa.
00:07:39
Have you heard that? Like, there's this shock moment because when you're in it, you don't feel the water boiling, you know, but when you throw the frog in, you feel the water boiling. Same thing. I haven't been with them a while, so a way to prep for that would be maybe in those IEP meetings saying, all right, is this the year that we start looking at voice options? No, we're not this year.
00:07:59
All right, well, I will bring that question up next year. And, you know, so that people are prepared for when that happens?
00:08:06
No, I think it's a good conversation to have early on as a way to kind of shape the way that families, especially, are thinking about the process ongoing. Cause the team will change inevitably, you know? And I think that having that on the radar of families helps kind of remind, like, oh, like thinking through the lens. Like, remember way back when we were talking about voice options? I think that that kind of primes families.
00:08:38
And to think about that aspect of AAC, which I'll admit, I even kind of am always so tunnel vision. I think when I'm thinking about AAC, and it's like, obviously, I've started kind of trying to broaden that, especially during the selection process. I'm looking at skin tone, which is now a feature that is available on most of the robust AAC systems, and, of course, language and things like that. But it just voices something that is so personal, too. And I think thinking through that and having conversations with families about that is really important to kind of bridge that gap.
00:09:23
And, yeah, it's just like, I was really surprised. I was like, wow, why wouldn't I have thought of that? And obviously, my clinician was thinking through it in real time and then felt like, oh, no, I could have done this differently. So hopefully that helps kind of our listeners think, like, hmm, like, are there any students on my caseload who I could have this conversation with families on? And, like, what does that look like?
00:09:48
Let me just also reflect on it, not from a speech therapy technical aspect, but I think I can comment as a parent that one of the hardest days of my life was dropping Tucker, who's my oldest child, off at college, and say, oh, my gosh, my child's growing up, and I have to take. I have to. Now my life is changing, his life is changing. Our dynamic of the four of us just went to the three of us on a consistent basis, and it was a shock moment. Even though I tried to prepare myself for it for months and months and months and months.
00:10:37
Still, you know, when the doors slammed shut on the car and we were driving away, it's really hard, right? And I can sort of picture the parents, you know, suddenly their child has one voice, and the child has now another voice would be a gut punch moment, right? Like, just like dropping Tucker off at college or similar to it. Um, so having some prep for it and thinking through it and having, um, having a conversation leading up to it, I was prepared for it, right? I knew it was going to happen.
00:11:11
It would have been a lot harder if that was suddenly, um, Tucker just went off to college. Right. Um, I think the prep can really help, you know, and strategies from other people that have been through it. Again, it's a constant theme on this podcast, is connecting with other parents to be like, okay, you know, you're not the first parent that has. That has worked with, has worked with, has had a child that has used AAC, and their voice has changed.
00:11:39
So what did. What helped you prepare for that? Or what didn't, or what had you wished would happen to help you prepare for that? Those sorts of conversations, I think, can help, because I certainly had many, if I'm trying to tie it to my own background knowledge, many conversations with parents that had dropped their kids off at college, and they're like, it's gonna suck. There's nothing you can do.
00:11:58
It's just gonna suck. And I was like, okay, that helped me. It helped me know that I wasn't, you know, that helped me know that my feelings were validated.
00:12:09
Yeah. You're not alone in your experience, which I feel like when you're going through something tough, it's so reassuring to know I'm not. This is a normal reaction. Right. I feel like we oftentimes think like, oh, no, there's something wrong with me.
00:12:24
Why can't I just handle this thing right? And just to know that other people share that reaction is just very reassuring.
00:12:34
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You're not alone. You're not alone, and you're not the first, and you won't be the last. And someday, you'll be in the position where you're helping someone else who is now at that stage of their life with their kids.
00:12:49
You know, you'll be in the advice giving role, and that's just how it works.
00:12:55
So, Chris, what's our interview about today?
00:12:57
Well, this interview is an awesome one. I mean, they're all awesome, but this one's particularly awesome. It's with two guys that run an organization called All Access Life, and these are guys that people have kept saying, oh, Chris, you got to meet them. You got to meet them. You got to meet them.
00:13:14
And then I'd see them from afar, away from a conference, and it was like, I got to get. But you know how it is at a conference. Like, you're trying to pull away. And so I finally did get to meet them again. One of the many interviews that got lined up after my experience of going to Alabama.
00:13:30
They were in the Alabama conference, and I got to actually play games with them and hang out with them. And so we said, guys, you got to come on the podcast. And of course they were. Yes, absolutely. And so, without further ado, here is my interview with the gentleman who run all access life.
00:13:57
We'd like to thank all of the wonderful Patreon supporters who make this show possible. This podcast is funded by listeners just like you who signed up@patreon.com talkingwithtech. To show their support. Because of the generosity of our amazing Patreon community, we're able to pay Luke and mikayla, our podcast producer and audio engineer, who keep the show looking and sounding great. Patreon supporters also receive bonus content, such as early access to interviews, behind the scenes recordings, additional curated resources and materials, and so much more.
00:14:27
Check it out@patreon.com. Talkingwithtech. Now let's head back into the episode.
00:14:41
Welcome to the Talking with Tech podcast. And hey, Brad. How's it going? I am here with the rock stars of the Internet, all, all access life. So let's start out with this, guys, and that is an apology from me.
00:14:57
I want to own it. This is the second time we've been scheduled to record. The first time we schedule the record this, it never happens. But I totally, I just. No excuses.
00:15:09
I totally flaked on our, on our meeting, so I apologize.
00:15:13
Ha ha.
00:15:15
No worries. And you're totally forgiven, Chris.
00:15:17
I appreciate that. I so appreciate that.
00:15:20
Yes.
00:15:21
So thanks for rescheduling with me. Thanks for taking your time. Let's talk about all things, all access life, and let's start off with who you are and what you do.
00:15:31
Brad, you want to kick it off?
00:15:35
Yes.
00:15:36
My name is Bradley Heaven. I'm 27 years old. I was born with nonverbal dyskinetic cerebral palsy, but I don't let it hold me back. I use the TD pilot from Tobi Dynavox to communicate and interact with the world around me. I am a co founder of all Access life.
00:15:57
What's going on, everyone? My name is Dan O'Connor. So, like Brad just said, we run a nonprofit called All Access Life together. I have a huge passion for adaptive products. I've been working with Brad for over 13 years, which we'll get into in a little bit.
00:16:11
But, yeah, I'm all about finding new adaptive products and empowering people with disabilities to live their best life.
00:16:17
I have to say, I've been following both of you. Your work together online for a while, being a big fan, specifically around adapted gaming. One of our first podcasts ever in the Talking with Tech podcast was all about adapted gaming and working with the able gamers organization. We interviewed them like six years ago. So it's been an ongoing passion product project of mine.
00:16:44
And seeing your work and how you do that. And actually just a quick story. This is how I met you guys in person. We were at the Alabama conference, the unconference, come around the corner and there.
00:16:55
Yes.
00:16:55
The whole setup. What were you guys playing? FIFA? Was it FIFA? I think.
00:17:00
Is that when I saw you?
00:17:01
Oh yes, you're playing some FIFA. We were playing somewhat Mortal Kombat, I think we had in there. Yeah, we were mixing it up, playing a whole bunch of different styles of games.
00:17:12
It was so fun.
00:17:14
Yeah. Hank Poor was there, who's been on the podcast. Yes, it was a fun time to get together and play some games and talk about how games can be more accessible. All right, so with that said, I know you guys get asked this question all the time, but for those people that haven't met you, how did you guys hook up and, and how did you meet and what's your background? What's your story?
00:17:38
Yeah, we definitely have like a long background, very extensive journey together, Brad and I. So we'll give you the condensed version. So Brad, he went to a specialized elementary school where he kind of like learned the foundation on how to use AAC and all that stuff. And then they kind of pushed him to go to a mainstream high school. High school, you know, so he had a few concerns.
00:18:00
He was a little bit nervous at the time to go to a mainstream high school, but they knew cognitively he could excel. So at that time, when he was entering grade seven, I was 19 years old, and I had recently paused my studies. I took a year off school just to try something new. It was kind of like the universe put us together in that moment for a reason. So I took on the role as Brad's full time integration aide 13 years ago.
00:18:24
Kind of just never look back, you know. It's crazy to think it's 13 years since you've been working together. I started off, you know, just pushing him to class, taking notes for him and stuff like that. Then over all these years, we just developed such a strong bond and friendship. And I've seen how empowering adaptive products are for Brad.
00:18:39
So that's what, you know, maybe so passionate about all this stuff. And that's why we decided to start this nonprofit. And here we are 13 years later.
00:18:46
In an office space and one stop shop.
00:18:49
Exactly. And Brad and I built the first ever one stop shop for adaptive products called All Access life. And yeah, we've been working very hard on this for the past five years now. For many more years to come.
00:19:00
Yes.
00:19:03
And so what about Brad? What's your side of that story?
00:20:08
I was really anxious about working with someone new, but a few weeks and working together, Danny and I clicked after.
00:20:16
A few weeks or a few months.
00:20:18
Yes.
00:20:19
Developing, you know, like we were having full on conversations just by Brad's facial gestures and head movements. I remember one day I walked into work and, yes, a couple of swift head gestures. And I looked at him and I was like, oh, there's a problem with your headrest, and your mom's going to send me a text message about it. And that's like exactly what he wanted to say. And he just had, like, the look as if he just saw a ghost.
00:20:37
It was absolutely hilarious.
00:20:42
I was shocked.
00:20:45
It's amazing when it actually just clicks like that. I think.
00:20:48
Yes.
00:20:50
In a similar way, I think Rachel and I, the other podcast hosts here, of Talking with Tech for about two years, we had done a podcast together and felt like this amazing connection of how we were these sort of similar people with similar mindsets and never met in person. Like, all just distance, zoom, you know, conversations. So that's amazing. It's amazing when it works.
00:21:15
Amazing.
00:21:17
Okay, so is it also fair to say then, Brad, that you weren't using the Toby back then? So, because it sounds like you were doing that, you weren't communicating the way you are now with this particular device. Is that fair?
00:21:31
No.
00:21:32
Okay.
00:21:46
I used head switches. Danny, can you please explain?
00:21:51
Yeah. So at that time, he was on a Dynavox Vmax, I believe. Vmax, yep. And he had these two wired head switches that he'd move his head to the left and to the right, and, you know, it would scroll through different options. So, for example, if you wanted to say, like, hi, my name is Brad.
00:22:07
That used to take him about maybe two to three minutes to say that.
00:22:10
Yes.
00:22:11
Yeah. So a lot of the time, just communicating through facial gestures was a lot quicker for us to do if.
00:22:16
Yes, quick and easy.
00:22:19
And. Yeah. Now with. With eye tracking technology, for Brad to say, hi, my name is Brad, it would take him under 10 seconds. It just.
00:22:25
It's amazing how much technology is. Has progressed over these years.
00:22:29
Gotcha. So would it be fair to say that the technology where it wasn't there those years ago for the sophisticated eye gaze that you're using now and the technology has improved and that's why. That's what's giving you this access?
00:22:43
Absolutely.
00:22:45
Awesome, awesome, awesome. All right, let's talk about all access life and, you know, the genesis of it, what you're hoping to do with it, you know, all the things. Tell me all about it. Tell everyone all about it.
00:22:58
All Access Life is a non profit organization whose mission is to help people with disabilities to live their best life through adaptive products.
00:23:09
So, yeah, so Brad and I, we realized, like working together for all these years, we started noticing that a lot of companies were creating adaptive products and there was a lot more adaptive products hitting the market. So obviously we were super passionate about finding all these adaptive products and we were, ourselves were having a hard time keeping up with everything that was coming out. So we said, you know, if we're having trouble keeping up with all these new adaptive products, like our parents, how are people with disabilities, how are, you know, professionals in the field, how is everybody keeping up with all these awesome, life changing adaptive products? So Brad and I, we said, hey, why don't we just scour the Internet, find all these adapted products, find ones that are, you know, quality products and put them, categorize them on a website. So at the time we had no idea how to build a website.
00:23:49
Yes.
00:23:50
You know, we learned how to create a site through the Wix platform. And yeah, Brad and dad came over to my place one summer every single day for like 8 hours. And we were like arguing over should we use Ariel or time zero min font for the site, you know, and we were just going back and forth and say three or four months. We had a finished product. Yes, on our website.
00:24:10
So allaccesslife.org and on the site, yeah, we showcase just trending adaptive products for different disabilities and we constantly update it with new resources every single month. New products of the month right now. So we select some really cool adapter products for the month. We also do product reviews on our social media channels. So those are always a lot of fun.
00:24:30
And yeah, we absolutely love creating content and showing our friendship and creating these videos. Yeah, I know where you're going with this.
00:24:57
Check out our social media at all access life.
00:25:01
Yeah, on all platforms.
00:25:03
Yes, all platforms. Instagram, you guys do twitch too? Like, I mean, people are going to know Instagram, they're going to know to try YouTube, right? They're going to go Facebook.
00:25:15
Yeah, we have some tick tock out there. Tick tock. Pretty much everything except for Twitch. We haven't ventured on the Twitch platform yet, but that is something that, you know, it piques our curiosity. Yes, maybe eventually we will get into that because Brad and I play video games in a way that like nobody's really ever seen before on the Internet.
00:25:32
So it's a lot of fun eventually.
00:25:34
Yeah, exactly.
00:25:37
Awesome.
00:25:37
All right.
00:25:38
So here you guys are. You get together, you decide you're going to make this website. You're going to start reviewing these adapted products because there's so many coming. And you can help. You feel this.
00:25:47
Hey, I can. We can help. We can get together. We can help people sort through the content. What, how do you choose, like my first thought question is, what was the first product?
00:25:58
Do you remember? And then the second question kind of related to that is, do you now seek out those products or has it come to be passed that you have crossed the threshold where people are coming to you and be like, hey, we've got a product. Will you review it for us? How does, how do you choose products to review? What's that all it like?
00:26:16
Great question. Great question. Brad's going to be answering here what the first product we ever reviewed was.
00:26:22
Yes.
00:26:32
The first product we reviewed was the Xbox adaptive controller.
00:26:37
Yeah. So funny story about that actually is we had recently just launched our YouTube channel. After winning, we won like an entrepreneurial ship competition called Dawson's Den at the college that Brad went to.
00:26:49
Yes.
00:26:50
Basically like kind of like Dragon's Den or like shark Tank.
00:26:54
Okay.
00:26:54
And we ended up getting first place. We won 1500 bucks. And with that, with the winnings, we purchased our first ever camera. And we said, you know what, let's, let's make our first ever product review and like let's kick off the YouTube channel. So, uh, so yeah, we reviewed the Xbox app, the controller on the first day that it came out.
00:27:10
And what's hilarious is there's a feature called if this, then that. I don't know if you're familiar with that, Chris.
00:27:14
I know that. Like the website, the IFTTT.
00:27:18
Exactly. Exactly. So we had it set up that every time we got a new subscriber on our YouTube channel, the lights in my apartment would flicker. So we just rather be over. We'd be working back and forth and you know, they would flicker like, oh yes, we got a new subscriber.
00:27:31
You know, so we'd freak out and be all happy. And I think we had like 30 subscribers at the time. We released.
00:27:36
Yes.
00:27:37
Video and I swear one day Brad was over and it was like a disco party in the apartment. The light just kept.
00:27:43
Yes.
00:27:44
And we thought there must have been a glitch in the system or something. And we go on the YouTube channel and I swear, every time we refresh the page, we had like a new, like, maybe.
00:27:52
Literally, it was just wild.
00:27:54
Yes.
00:27:55
The video went viral and it got, I think it's at 1.4 million views now.
00:27:59
Yes.
00:28:00
That's what kind of kickstarted our reviewing career. Yeah.
00:28:07
Literally a disco.
00:28:09
Yeah, yeah, they just kept flickering. It was wild.
00:28:13
That's so exciting. Wait, tell me more about the video. Was it with the adapted controller, the Xbox controller? Like the review of it?
00:28:20
Yes, exactly.
00:28:21
So, yeah, Brad and I, we just showcased how Brad's able to play modern day video games using head switches. So we, we had some gameplay in there, you know, just showcasing. We played Tekken, I believe it was so. Yes, a one versus one battle. I was using the standard Xbox controller.
00:28:35
Battle is hooked up to the Xbox adaptive controller. He had two head switches, two elbow switches. He even had some foot switches there too. And, you know, he was just moving around.
00:28:44
Yes.
00:28:45
Buttons. And our characters were battling one versus one. And you're just laughing hysterically. And definitely a moment that we'll never forget.
00:28:52
Yes, that's, that's awesome. And now before you go on about. Oh, go ahead, Brad.
00:28:57
Definitely.
00:28:58
Yeah.
00:28:58
Well, before we go on about that second part of that question about products, can we just talk about the Xbox controller for a second? Again, with my little niche with adaptive gaming or gaming in general. So I work for a public school, and whenever I go to conferences like the one I met you guys at, I'm always looking for what makes learning awesome, what makes going to school awesome, and something that everyone is excited about and everyone's talking about is esports right now. And there are more esports teams than ever before and competitions before. And something I see very sparingly is people with physical disabilities participating in the esports competitions.
00:29:41
And you guys are making it with, with that, that sort of video and the Xbox adaptive controller showing people like, hey, everyone can be included in this. Is that fair? Are you finding similar things?
00:29:55
Yes.
00:29:56
Yeah, 100%. Like, I know in a lot of these videos that we post, you know, showcasing this unique way that Brad and I play video games together using the co pilot feature. So just a rundown of what that feature is. It's an Xbox Microsoft accessibility feature that basically allows two controllers to act as one. So whenever Brad and I play video games, he has those two head switches.
00:30:17
So let's say in a soccer game, he'll control, pass and shoot, and I'll control the rest of the buttons. And together we play as one controller. So it basically makes for any video game to be accessible. So we can play any game and you know, the gameplay is just absolutely hilarious because I'll be yelling at Brad to take the shot, take the shot, you know, and he'll have to rely on me to get him to the net. And it's just.
00:30:38
It's amazing. And just, yeah, it's so much fun to play games that way. And at any time we do release the video, we just see in the comments section that nobody's really heard of this style of game.
00:30:49
It makes for hilarious gameplay.
00:30:51
Yeah, yeah, 100%. 100%. So the comment section and the people, the audience engagement is just amazing. And it's just so nice to be able to share the style and these adaptive products with people, you know, and put them on the map.
00:31:09
Actually, a few companies have started doing adaptive esports.
00:31:14
Yep.
00:31:15
Sort of like if there was a special olympics, it'd be like, adaptive esports.
00:31:19
Yeah.
00:31:21
Um, that's so yes to all of that and yes to. Let's do that for all esports. Right. Like, I just love that notion. Um, would another, would this be fair?
00:31:33
I think in esports, a popular game because there's cartoon violence or no violence, would be rocket. Rocket league, right?
00:31:43
Rocket league, yeah.
00:31:44
Yes.
00:31:45
That's a fun one.
00:31:46
Do you guys know if that has a copilot feature where someone controls the steering and someone else controls, like, the gas, you know?
00:31:54
Yeah, yeah. So it's funny you actually asked that. We were just playing with a popular YouTube couple, Colin Charisma, on Friday, and it was just hilarious. Yeah. So how Brad and I play together is Brad controls the boost and the jump, and I control the rest of the buttons.
00:32:09
But Rocket league, it's a very intricate game where, like, the mechanics of boost and jump, it's very tough to play together in a cohesive way, you know, so it does make for hilarious gameplay, you know? So we got a couple of own goals, but we also did get a couple of goals in the opponent. But, yeah, just, we always have a fun time. That's what it's all about.
00:32:29
Ha ha.
00:32:31
We need to practice.
00:32:32
Yeah, yeah, that is true. That is true. Definitely.
00:32:36
The other thing I want to point about this, I mean, you can hear all of us kind of. You can. Those of you listening on the podcast feed can probably hear the smiles on our faces. All three of us kind of laughing about how this, this is hilarious. But yet I think a lot of people think about video gaming as like this solitary thing where someone goes down in their basement, they turn all their lights off and they play by themselves.
00:32:57
But it's totally not that. I mean, it could be. No, no, that's fine if you want to do it that way. But the way you guys are describing it is that's this interactive communication experience together, just you two together playing, but then also playing against other people, communicating with them.
00:33:15
Yes, 100%.
00:33:19
Yes. Yes.
00:33:21
Gaming brings people together, and with advancements in adaptive technology, such as the Xbox adaptive controller and eye tracking, it has brought people with disabilities into the gaming action. I know myself, I'm finally able to unleash minor gamer. Gaming has given me another social outlet to enjoy with my friends and family.
00:33:45
Yeah.
00:33:46
All smiles there, that's for sure.
00:33:47
Yeah. Games cross all cultures. Everybody enjoys games and video games for sure. Have, can draw people in rather than push people away for sure. That's been my experience.
00:33:58
Yes.
00:33:59
And, yeah, and you mentioned about the, the Alabama conference, definitely that you met us at, you know, so, yeah, we had that gaming booth there, and it was just amazing. We had, you know, just people like, just attending the, the conference, come and sit down and, and play video games with Brad, play FIFA, play tekken. We had like kids and adults and people with disabilities play with Brad. And it was just, it was so much fun. You know, we actually got to a point where it was Brad, Hank, myself, we were playing FIFA.
00:34:23
I believe Hank was programmed as shoot raddows program has passed.
00:34:27
Yes.
00:34:27
Moving the player around and we were all playing together as one player when we got that first goal there. It just, it felt so good. And we all just cheering, you know. It was a great moment for sure.
00:34:44
It was such a fun experience.
00:34:47
Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. All right, so with gaming, clearly we have some enthusiasm around gaming. What about other products?
00:34:55
How does that work? Do they have, do they now come to you or are you still searching them out? How does it, or is it both? How does it all work?
00:35:02
So, yeah, great question. So it started off we were seeking out. Yes, we were seeking out products from companies. So Brad and I would just kind of find cool products that we wanted to review, and then we'd contact the companies and see if they want to send us their product for us to make a review. And.
00:35:17
Exactly.
00:35:18
Now they come to us now.
00:35:21
Exactly. And now it's at a point where they come to us. Exactly.
00:35:25
And so they'll reach out and do they review? Do they ask you like it comes. So let me, let me see if I can explain my question here. So what I do in my school district, one, one of the responsibilities that my team and I do is we review products for accessibility before they get put into before they're placed in front of students. Like, hey, and that's not just accessibility products or adapted products.
00:35:51
It's like all software, right? So here we're considering of onboarding the software in our school district. Let's look at it from data privacy. Let's look at it from performance standards. Let's look at it.
00:36:03
Does it match pedagogically? Hey, we think this is a good. This aligns with our teaching practices. Right. And then, oh, by the way, does it.
00:36:12
What kind of accessibility features does it have? And who might we. Who might struggle with using this tool the way it's designed? And this has provided feedback to the companies to go, oh, geez, we didn't realize people with visual impairments wouldn't be able to see our stuff. Or we didn't think that there are switch users that could navigate through our product by hitting switch.
00:36:34
Tab, tab, tab enter. Tab, tab, tab enter. They're not thinking that.
00:36:39
Yes.
00:36:39
And it's totally informed them. So it works both ways. One, it helps on the back end for the students that we support so that they're not putting into. No, they're not given experiences where they're inaccessible. Or if they are, we at least are aware of that ahead of time.
00:36:55
But two, it points information back to the.
00:36:58
To the.
00:36:59
To the person's developing the product to go, hmm, yeah, we could actually develop this better.
00:37:03
Yeah.
00:37:03
Why didn't we think of this? You know, what has your experience been around that? I mean, do you. Do you find that people are coming to you with reviews? Hey, before this hits the marketplace, give us feedback so we can make it better?
00:37:15
Or is it after or both? Or what are your thoughts about all that?
00:37:26
I would say we do both for.
00:37:29
Sure, and I'll piggyback off that. So, every year, Brad and I, we go to the consumer electronics show. It's called CES Vegas. And it's a huge, you know, just there's a whole bunch of trending technology, up and coming technology, and it's a massive conference in Las Vegas, and it's just amazing. You know, so many companies, they've never even heard of eye track.
00:37:49
It's huge.
00:37:50
Yeah, yeah. So, like, just as an example, there was, like, a company that made a chessboard that through an app, you can use the app to move, like, physically move the chess pieces. Like, the pieces would magnetically move on the actual board. So for somebody who would lack the fine motor skills to actually move like a chess piece, physically move one. So, like, you know, Brad wouldn't be able to do that.
00:38:10
But since he's able to control the app using his eyes, technically, he can now move chess pieces with his eyes. So we showed them that, and we showed them how Brad can access the app. And they were just so amazed. And even they were even willing to modify the app and make it more accessible, like a bigger UI. So bracket access the buttons easier and stuff like that.
00:38:30
So we educate the companies but more at CES and.
00:38:34
Yes.
00:38:35
Yeah, that's awesome that they're so receptive. That has been my experience pretty much overwhelmingly is. People are like, oh, yeah, oh, what could we do? Especially, like, engineers and developers, like, they want to make their products as accessible as possible, and they're, they're, they're very willing to try and make it happen. I know that that has been my experience with robots and coding, block coding.
00:38:56
It's like, it's not built that way at first, but then they realize and then ever moving forward, they are thinking that way. It.
00:39:29
A lot of companies don't realize that people with disabilities can use their product.
00:39:35
Yeah. Yeah. And then they can design it to make sure that they. Or, hey, it's already that way, and I didn't know that. Or if it's not, then I can make some adjustments to make it more accessible.
00:39:46
Exactly.
00:39:47
Yeah. So, yeah, so Brad and I, we like to say, we like to shed an accessible light on products. You know, that.
00:39:54
Yes.
00:39:54
Especially ones that are created with more of like, a universal design. You know, another example is like, there's these UE fits earbuds that Brad, he can never really wear earbuds in his ear because, you know, because of his head movements and the headrest, they'll just fall right out. But these uefits earbuds, they actually mold to the inside of your ear. So they get like, customized heat up and they mold to your ear.
00:40:15
Yes.
00:40:16
You know, we test them out with Brad and I just kind of recorded. It wasn't even really a full review. I just took out my cell phone and recorded the molding process. And next thing you know, they finished molding. And then.
00:40:26
They are amazing.
00:40:27
Yeah, he was moving his head around and the earbuds were staying stuck in his ears. And it was just such a cool moment, you know, because, yeah, they designed for universal design. They work for everyone, basically. So.
00:40:37
Yes.
00:40:38
Yes.
00:40:39
That's awesome. All right, so you've been doing this for a couple years now, like you said, two or three years. Is that.
00:40:47
Yes.
00:40:49
Do you find any trends or consistencies or maybe inconsistencies? What are some of the things you notice that are sort of a through line with all the products that you talk about?
00:41:02
We have noticed that companies are becoming more and more inclusive.
00:41:09
So, yeah, just to elaborate on that. So the, for example, the Microsoft, the Xbox adapter controller that we already alluded to, you know, like just a company like Microsoft, you know, such a mainstream company creating this, this adaptive product for people with disabilities to be able to unleash their inner gamer, you know, it kind of helps pave the way for, for other companies, you know, to create, you know, and for more inclusive design. Even right after that, actually, Logitech created their adaptive gaming kit. So it's a kit of twelve different adaptive switches. You know, you can plug into the Xbox adaptive controller.
00:41:42
So, you know, there's companies that are like, you know, piggyback off the bad invention. So it's just, you know. Yes, in the way, for sure.
00:41:50
So, guys, I remember when that came out and I remember looking at the price point of those going, wait, we buy switches that are way more expensive than that. Why are we. This, this is so much. And we bought those to use as switches for not necessarily just gaming.
00:42:06
Exactly.
00:42:06
Accessing everything else.
00:42:08
Absolutely right.
00:42:09
Which really drives the price point down and makes things, again, a little bit easier to get for a wider range. People use barriers, you know? Yeah, exactly. Okay, so because these mainstream companies have sort of prioritized accessibility, you feel like that is helping other smaller companies realize the importance. Is that a fair way to summarize it?
00:42:35
Definitely.
00:42:37
Yeah.
00:42:38
And I think also, you know, they recognize there's a market there that they'll actually make more money when they design things with accessibility. And like you said, universal design in mind, they get their market share increases by, let's say, 13% to 25%.
00:42:58
Absolutely.
00:43:00
Awesome. All right, so let's say. Let's switch gears here for a second. Let's pretend people listening aren't speech language. Pathologists and educators and parents tweak their innovator brain.
00:43:13
That's say, they're designers. They're product designers. What sort of advice would you give somebody who is a product designer to design things with accessibility in mind?
00:43:31
Nothing about us, without us, I would suggest that the company get feedback from the actual people with disabilities in each step of product creation.
00:43:42
Yeah, I mean, I agree with that 100% as well. You know, that he couldn't have said any better.
00:43:48
Yeah. And Brad, just to elaborate on that for a second, I always like to say this on the podcast. Here we are at the state of our recording. There's never been more people using technologies like you are right now that can actually communicate what the needs are, what the changes need to be. And so let's just listen.
00:44:11
Like ask the questions and listen.
00:44:15
Exactly.
00:44:18
Okay. So I've designed something. My job, my next step is to go out and find people to actually review it. Like you guys with disabilities that can say, this works, this doesn't change this, change that. Don't change this.
00:44:33
Keep that, keep that. I was awesome. And it sounds like you have some stories.
00:44:39
Yes.
00:44:40
Right. With your product design, when you're with your reviews, you've had experiences like that where people have, have listened to you.
00:45:00
Yes, a few products.
00:45:01
Exactly like the majority of the products that we do. Reviews are kind of like finalized products, you know, that are already out to market. But yeah, we have occasionally helped a few different companies in the product development for sure.
00:45:13
Cool. Can we go back to gaming for a second? Let's just talk. I can't stop thinking about it because I do feel like it is an avenue. I think most people think school is like this drudgery and esports and gaming is a way to, like we said, like we already said, it's a really inclusive way to get everybody involved.
00:45:34
We already talked about Rocket League. We already talked about FIFA. What are some other accessible games and other thoughts do you have around accessible gaming?
00:45:56
Danny and I know of a few educators that have incorporated gaming in their curriculum and have had a lot of success. We truly believe that it is beneficial to incorporate gaming in the educational curriculum to promote a fun and interactive learning environment.
00:46:13
Yeah. So go ahead, Chris.
00:46:15
Well, here's what I want to say about that, Brad, is I think there's two ways it can be incorporated, and one is really good and one is really bad. Let me explain. So I think the really good way is you can integrate it into what you're doing and you can say, oh, geez, we're going to work on this spelling thing. Let's make a game out of spelling. Right?
00:46:35
Or let's work on this math thing. But hey, actually, what if we tallied up our scores in Rocket league and what are look at our stats afterwards? That's a fun, engaging way.
00:46:45
Definitely.
00:46:46
The negative way I see it used is you do this awful thing and then you get to, or what you perceive as an awful thing and then you get to play games. Right. It's like this carrot at the end. And that is what I would like to say. Let's not do that.
00:46:59
And is that fair?
00:47:01
Very fair, yes.
00:47:03
Yeah. So I was going to mention. Yes, or Brad mentioned. We know a few educators. So one of our friends, Miles Harvey, he teaches media literacy, video games, literature, and scholastic esports at the James Monroe Middle school.
00:47:16
And he's just so passionate about his work. And he's even written a book called the research and it's integration in education. And we highly recommend checking out that book because he's just very passionate about, you know, integrating gaming within the educational system. And he's. He's amazing what he does.
00:47:33
It has to be intertwined, right?
00:47:36
Yeah.
00:47:36
It's not a separate thing. It's an intertwined thing with me. A separate club afterwards, in addition to integrating into the curriculum. That's a great resource, Dan. We will make sure it's linked in the show notes so other people can go check it out.
00:47:50
Perfect.
00:47:51
Cool. Anything else about copilot or anything else around gaming that you think everybody should know about?
00:48:00
I mean, I would say Brad and I like, on our social media channels, we're always trying to look for new fun games that we can play together. Another one we recently played was hello, neighbor. So that's always a fun one. You got to break into this neighbor's house and, you know, Brad was controlling sprint and jump. So it was very nerve wracking for Brad.
00:48:17
You know, like be yelling at him to sprint and stuff like that. So it just. The co pilot feature is just amazing because if you can control one or two switches, you know, you can. You can copilot with someone else and just play any style of game that you want. We also love playing dive.
00:48:31
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I didn't even see you typing that, but yeah.
00:48:37
Also dive kick.
00:48:39
Yeah. So dive kick is a game that Brad and I settle a lot of our disputes on. So dive kick is amazing because it's a two button game. So it's, you know, it's an evening playing field. Brad is his two head switch.
00:48:49
Yes.
00:48:49
I have a and b on a standard controller. And it's like a one versus one battle. So it's like a cartoony style, like, you know, fighting game. And you could either dive or kick. And.
00:48:59
Yeah, it's always me, the best madman, you know, and it's pretty competitive. It gets very competitive between us. And I would say it's an even split. So it's. Yeah, we each win about half the time.
00:49:11
Definitely a lot of fun. Yeah, exactly. There you go.
00:49:32
I actually broke my headrest once playing it.
00:49:35
Oh, yeah, yeah, he's broke his head rest. He's. One time I was wearing a hoodie, I put the hoodie over my head so I couldn't see what was going on. One time I sabotaged one of his switches. So he gets very competitive.
00:49:47
It's always a good time.
00:49:49
Yes.
00:49:50
That's so fun. Okay, so with all that said, what is. Here's so Rachel has a great questions she likes to ask at the end of her interviews. And it's like, what would you put on a billboard that's hers? My question that I put at the end of interviews is, what do you, what are you curious about?
00:50:07
What are you jazzed about? What do you want to learn more about? You guys are two curious guys who are inventive and have this entrepreneurs preneurial spirit. Right. What's got you, Jazz?
00:50:20
What's got you curious?
00:50:23
I'm really interested in adaptive gaming and what new technology for gaming is coming out. I'm equally excited about artificial intelligence. I find it really empowering how it can help me generate sentences and even images after I write descriptive text.
00:50:42
Oh, Brad, you're gonna have to elaborate on that, my friend, because this, we.
00:50:46
Knew you'd like that one, Chris. We knew you'd like that one because.
00:50:50
As soon as I saw chat GPT, I was like, oh, I know guys, they're gonna totally use this for just the way you described it. And in fact, I remember talking to Hank about it when Hank and I were at the Atia conference and I said, hey, have you heard of chat GPT? It's like souped up word prediction. He's like, tell me more. I use word prediction all the time, so I'm curious how you use it.
00:51:11
Tell, tell us more, Brad.
00:51:14
So actually, I think he's giving you a live demo right here, Chris. He's, this one's called DaVinci, and he's just showing you. So he's creating an image here just off describing what he wants. Generated?
00:51:30
Yeah. You type it in the text there. Like, this is like on your iPhone maybe.
00:51:35
Exactly. Yeah. And he always has a lot of fun with this. You know, he's constantly typing in new descriptive text and generating a whole bunch of images. So it's awesome.
00:51:46
For sure there's a text. Now he's choosing the style that he wants.
00:52:04
Uh huh. So I'm going to read it. It was superhero in a wheelchair. You're not going to do creepy tattoo. It's fine.
00:52:15
You don't have to do grip.
00:52:19
Always going with cartoon. Right now he goes to generate and takes a couple of seconds here to generate a custom image here. Oh, that's awesome. That is very cool.
00:52:40
Oh, yeah. It's not just one image, it's a bunch of them. Right.
00:52:43
And then you can just scroll through.
00:52:44
And choose which one you want. I think that's generally. Most of these I've seen generate, like, four different images. Right. And you get to choose which one you want.
00:52:51
I don't know.
00:52:53
That's a cool one right there.
00:52:54
Yeah. The superman symbol on it.
00:52:57
Oh, yeah.
00:52:59
Yeah. Awesome. So, all right, so that's text image, but are you using it, like you said, putting in prompts, getting long group of text, and then editing that. Editing that. Is that a thing you're using or.
00:53:11
No.
00:53:11
Really? That creeps me out. It.
00:53:49
I asked for a congratulating message for someone who just got a new job, and then I edited it.
00:53:55
Yeah, exactly. I think it's so helpful that way.
00:53:58
Yes.
00:54:00
For multiple purposes. You know, in some cases, maybe. I don't know what to say. Sometimes I have a task, I'm not sure how to get started. I'll put it in there, and I'll be like, here, do these things, you know.
00:54:12
Extremely helpful.
00:54:14
Yeah, that's been my experience as well. All right, so Brad says AI, right, is one of your answers as far as what's got you curious. And so that artificial intelligence piece. What about you, Dan? What are you.
00:54:26
What are you excited about for the future, so.
00:54:28
For sure, for myself, it's definitely BCI. So brain computer interfaces, I know I've seen those used in a variety of different ways, whether it's communication or even gaming, actually, or controlling different smart home technologies. I know there's like. I believe there's even a streamer that uses solely a BCI device and plays video games just off her thoughts. So, you know, like, you just see her running around in a freely in a world and fighting other characters and stuff, and it's all based off her, generated by her thoughts, and it's just amazing, you know?
00:54:59
So the future for BCI is just super fascinating for myself.
00:55:16
I can actually imagine just thinking about running around in a world with a character.
00:55:22
Yeah, totally. Totally.
00:55:24
Yes.
00:55:25
And if I might, merging what you're both jazzed about together, right?
00:55:30
Oh, yeah.
00:55:30
BCI with AI in these immersive experiences, it. It sends shivers up my spine as well, because it'd be so much fun to game in that experience. Right. And so much fun to play and work.
00:55:42
Yes.
00:55:43
The. The metaverse sort of the idea behind it is. Is exhilarating.
00:55:48
Future is definitely exciting, and we can't wait for what's to come. The gaming world and in so many other ways as well.
00:56:12
It can definitely be intertwined.
00:56:15
Yeah. Into everything we do. It has the chance to revolutionize work, education, every aspect of life. If we invite it in, a lot of people kind of push it away, like, or don't spend the time trying to learn about it.
00:56:31
Right.
00:56:32
Have you experienced that where people are sort of.
00:56:34
Yes.
00:56:36
Technophobic, if that's.
00:56:37
I don't know.
00:56:37
Is that the right word?
00:56:44
Absolutely.
00:56:45
I know Brad and I have made content on how, like, you know, AI empowers, like, him to live his life there. And then he showcased, like, the image generating app, and he showcased, you know, chat, GPT and stuff like that. Yeah, we have got that in the comments section that a lot of people are hesitant about AI, but that's why we try to promote the. The good side of it, you know, and keep pushing that stuff. Yes.
00:57:08
It's all about education.
00:57:10
Yeah.
00:57:11
Thousand percent agree. Thousand percent agree. Well, guys, this has been awesome. Any sort of final thoughts that you'd like, you'd want to leave everybody with?
00:57:22
I guess this would be considered artificial intelligence, but we're going to have to show you this, too. It's called the service called my own voice. So I recorded my voice. I said about, I believe it was like maybe 30 to 50 sentences, and it basically recorded my voice, then generated a synthesize, a synthetic version of my voice that Brad is able to now use on his device. So check this out.
00:57:43
It's pretty awesome. Hey. Hey. So see, it sounds exactly like me. I bet you don't even know which one that I was there.
00:57:56
That is pretty cool.
00:57:57
Yes, yes. He can type full sentences again using my voice. So it's pretty amazing. Hey, Chris. So pretty cool little feature.
00:58:11
That's cool. That's built into the Toby system.
00:58:15
Yes. Yeah. Yes. Who's answering now? At this point, we don't even know who's answering.
00:58:25
Yeah. So that service is called my own voice and super cool service. And. Oh, yeah, I know where you're going with this.
00:58:52
I actually got a free coffee using it.
00:58:55
Yeah. So he was clever. So the first time he had access to the voice, you know, he said, hey, let's order a coffee. And it's on the house. You know, it's on me.
00:59:03
And he said it in the voice, my voice there. So it was just. It's good.
00:59:09
That's awesome. That's awesome. All right, guys, well, listen, this has been fun. This has been amazing. Let's keep the relationship going.
00:59:16
Um, let me ask you this real.
00:59:18
Quick before you go.
00:59:19
What's next for you? Like, where you guys, uh, off to another conference? I mean, like you said, you go to Las Vegas every year. Um, where am I going to catch up with you next? Are you guys going to get Atia?
00:59:30
Oh, yeah.
00:59:31
You're going to see you in January?
00:59:32
Yes.
00:59:33
Yeah, you'll see us?
00:59:34
Yes.
00:59:35
Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna be there. Presentation. Yeah. So we're gonna be doing a presentation there as well called squad goals.
00:59:44
We're gonna be presenting with. With Hank and Elizabeth. So it's gonna be a great presentation. We're gonna be talking about AAC and socializing and integrating an AC user in the educational system and everything like that. So sharing some.
00:59:56
We can't wait tips and tricks and our experience.
00:59:59
So, yeah, we can't wait. Going to be attending a lot more system technology conferences.
01:00:03
Yes.
01:00:04
Covering them and showcasing new trends and adapted products. So we're just going to keep at it and keep on growing the nonprofit.
01:00:12
Awesome.
01:00:12
Love it, guys.
01:00:13
Well, I can't wait to see you down at Atia. I know Rachel hasn't. I don't think you guys have met Rachel yet. I know she'll be there and she'll be super excited to meet you.
01:00:20
Awesome. 23.
01:00:22
Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be a blast. It's going to be a blast. Have you been before?
01:00:27
Yes.
01:00:28
In fact, no. I remember that you were at the last Atia, and I saw you from a distance, but we never actually got to meet, so it's like. Okay. Yes. So awesome.
01:00:39
You should go for lunch or something this time.
01:00:41
Yes.
01:00:42
I love it. Let's do it.
01:00:45
Definitely. Thanks so much.
01:00:51
Yes. Thank you very much for having us, Chris. We highly appreciate it.
01:00:54
Thank you. We'll put all your stuff in the show notes so people can access it. And thank you, guys. We'll talk to you soon.
01:01:01
Take care, Chris. Have a good night.
01:01:02
Bye bye, everyone.