Episode 330: Amanda Diekman: Lowering Parental Demands to Increase Connection and Calm
This week, we share Rachel’s interview with Amanda Diekman! Amanda (@lowdemandamanda)is an autistic adult and parent of three neurodivergent children who advocates for a shift away from traditional parenting models that prioritize control and demands. She suggests that accommodating children's needs and reducing expectations can foster better emotional connections. The interview underscores the significance of empathy, patience, and the need for adults to reflect on their own emotional responses to better support children in navigating their challenges!
Before the interview, Rachel and Chris discuss some recent work that Rachel is doing on a yet-to-be-released update of her course, AAC Ally! Rachel shares that, since the previous version of AAC Ally focused more on assessment, the new version of AAC Ally will focus more on implementation and treatment. Rachel suggests that you sign up for her newsletter at rachelmadel.com/optin to receive updates on when the updated AAC Ally releases!
Key Ideas this Episode:
Radical Acceptance and Safety: Amanda emphasizes the importance of creating a sense of safety in children by aligning expectations with their capabilities. This involves understanding and accepting children as they are, without imposing overwhelming demands that trigger stress and make them feel unsafe.
Non-Verbal Communication and Co-Regulation: Amanda explains that much of the communication with children, especially neurodivergent ones, can be non-verbal. Parents and caregivers should rely on their own nervous systems to co-regulate, recognizing distress signals and providing calm and connection to bring children back to a state of safety.
Letting Go of Control: A major aspect of low-demand parenting is learning to release control and lower demands when children are overwhelmed. Rather than doubling down on rules or consequences, Amanda advocates for letting go of unrealistic expectations in the moment to restore emotional safety and connection.
Transcript of the Episode
00:00:08 Chris Bugaj
Welcome to talking with Tech. My name is Chris Bugaj, and I'm here with Rachel Madel. Rachel, guess what? I feel like learning something. Is there any good places I could learn something from?
00:00:19 Rachel Madel
So funny you ask, Chris. There's great places that you can learn. What do you want to learn about?
00:00:25 Chris Bugaj
Well, let's see. I've gone to conferences, and I'm going to be going to more conferences, of course, and it's always great to do in person learning. But I'm also a big fan of, like, kind of going at my own pace, doing something asynchronous, taking a break when I need to, I get interrupted, or my mind just sort of wanders. I can pause it and come back to it, maybe something that's broken up into small chunks, any sort of online experience with people that I really like, know and trust.
00:00:54 Rachel Madel
Well, Chris, I have the perfect course for you. I, as many of our listeners know, created a course called AAC Ally 4 years ago. Chris, can you believe I created that course in 2020? Maybe. We actually didn't launch it till 2021, the early part of 2021. But it's kind of crazy that that many years has passed. And what I'm really excited to announce to all of our listeners is that I'm creating another version of that course. So the first course was really focused on the selection process, and the new course is focused on treatment and implementation. And, you know, I've been thinking about, like, what do I do next? How do I build out what I currently have? And I realize that I have a whole lot of ideas to share about my clinical work, a lot of coaching, a lot of clinical videos that I'm going to be sharing. And so recently, in the last couple of weeks, I've been putting all that together and I've been recording it, and I'm really excited because I have really thought about what you mentioned as far as when I'm teaching someone in a way where I know they're likely gonna watch a module or two and then come back to it, and we don't have the time pressure of this training is from 830 to 330. How would I do things differently? Like, how would I set up the learning in a way that really helps people not only learn skills, but also integrate that and start practicing what they've learned? And so it's been really fun for me as I put together this new course, because I've been really thinking through the lens of having people really integrate their experience. And so what that looks like in real world, real terms, is, you know, pausing the video, having people do exercises and activities, you know, I feel like I was always the person who would read the self help books, but always, like, blow right past the journaling exercises, like, all the activities that were supposed to integrate your learning. I was like, whatever. I don't even need that. Like, let's keep forging forward. And I've now realized as I've gotten older and just like, as I've learned more about how people learn that piece, the integration piece is everything, because so often we get all this information, especially in this day and age, where it's just like, information's coming at us every platform, every time we're on our phones, on our computers, you know, tablets, like, we're just constantly inundated with information. Our brain can't possibly hold on to all of it. And if we're not working with that new information and trying to apply it to our life, to our, you know, clinical work, to the things that we do, and then, you know, the follow up is, like, actually, like, reflecting back on what we've done and how we've done it. And, you know, if we're not doing all of that, then we're really not learning to the fullest extent. And so I'm really excited that I've been thinking through that lens. I've been really, you know, designing the course with that in mind and figuring out how people can really practice and integrate some of the skills. And so I'm really excited. It's been super fun. I was like, oh, I already have this content, Chris. We have tons and tons of slides, hundreds and hundreds of slides and content. And I like, of course, as I'm putting it together, I'm like, but what about this idea? And I have this idea, this is a new tool. And so inevitably, I thought it was going to be the super fast process, and it just wasn't. And it's fine because it's been fun and it's been really great for me to kind of put it all together and create new content and all of those things. But it's just funny because I'm like, I already have it. It's basically already done. And I'm like, it's not actually, it's like, brand new, and there's so much new content, which has been great, but it's just, like, funny how we always tell ourselves, like, we already have this course. It's already done. No. No, it's not.
00:05:17 Chris Bugaj
Well, you know, that's so interesting, all that you mentioned there, like you said, you can't just watch a video and you can get new ideas, but you really can't learn a skill unless you put the work in. But the work doesn't have to suck, right? Like, it can be a fun experience that you want to do, and you can feel like your skills are growing. And I feel like that's part of AAC ally, is that it's not. It doesn't feel like you're taking your medicine. You know what I mean? I think I know people get excited to come back to it, you know, not like, because you really can't sit and get it all in one chunk, right? So it's something that you are. You're working with and you're living with for a little while, and you're going through this experience that you're having, and so you're excited to come back to it. Not like, oh, I gotta go. I gotta get in the treadmill again. No, it's like, no, I want to go for this run today. You know, like, it's that sort of experience. So I'm excited to see the revamp. I can't wait to. To dive in and explore and play with a little bit. Can you share about anything? Like, when it's coming out or how people get it or what's the deets on how people can get interested?
00:06:20 Rachel Madel
Yeah. So I'm gonna definitely be posting it on my social media and our email. I don't wanna say a specific date. Cause I'm like, my team will be like, no, Rachel, why'd you do that? Why'd you lock us in? Because we are pulling all these things together pretty last minute in the grand scheme of things. So it will definitely be out this fall. And if you follow me on social media or on my email list is probably the best way to stay in touch, which we can link to in our show notes. Just go to my website and it's awesome. Cause not only do you get to be a part of my email list, but you get tons of free resources. We actually are sending out a lot of free resources at the beginning of the school year on our email list. So if you haven't checked that out, I definitely would, just because it's a great way to stay in touch. And for sure, no one who's on my email list will not be informed when the course opens. And so I'm really excited to share it. And yeah, I'm excited to see what an impact it can make and how it can change people's practice. The original AAC Ally, the assessment version, I get so many emails when people finish it that they say, like, it was so amazing and so incredible. And, you know, I was able to learn so much and I want to go back to it over and over again. And so it just feels really good to be able to help support people in that way. And what's interesting is that I go back to the original. Cause I was looking at the original course, the assessment course, thinking like, okay, I don't wanna, like, I don't want it to be too much overlap. And so I needed to kind of refresh myself on the original. And of course, like, the perfectionist in me is like, there's so much that needs to be updated. Like, I need to completely change discourse too. That will eventually happen. Cause I do have some really great ideas. I have some new clinical videos of a assessment that I want to share. But it's funny because it made me realize my evolution as a presenter and my evolution in the space of teaching others about AAC. And so it's just interesting to kind of zoom out for a second and realize all the growth and evolution that I've seen not only as a presenter but also in my own clinical work. I'm like, there's things that I was recommending four years ago that I'm like, well, I kind of do things differently now, really, like thinking through this lens and, you know, especially when it comes to neurodiversity affirming practices. And so it's just interesting, like, you know, how we evolve as clinicians and that's one of the coolest things about our field and one of the coolest things about, you know, being in the, you know, educator space is that we have that ability to keep learning, keep growing, keep trying new things. And so that's really been fun. It was kind of like, wow, I'm so excited for this new course because I'm just like, I'm a completely different person than I was four years ago. And I'm just like, I don't know, I have new ideas. I have more stories to share clinically. And so, yeah, I'm really excited.
00:09:27 Chris Bugaj
Yeah. Well, let me comment on two things that you said. One is when you're talking about the emails that you get saying that, hey, this course really helped me and this really worked for me. People don't have to take your word for it. They can take my word for it. I have been standing next to you at conferences no less than 50 times. When people have come up and have said those exact words to you, I was standing there listening to it. Yeah. Okay, so this clearly works because these people are excited about it and they have changed. And then secondly, you and I have presented together, you know, a billion times now, right? And one of those things that we lean into is that growth. Like, you literally share videos or, like, okay, look, look what this person did. And it's you in the video sharing, like, where you've grown, right? Like, so I would never do that anymore. I wouldn't say that anymore. Or I might. And I realize it afterwards that I've made that mistake because that's where I'm growing, and I'm not perfect. Like, all those things are. Are so true and so valid. And so it totally makes sense to kind of always be growing and always be changing and updating the course, not just, you know, living with it for ten years, because stuff changes, you know?
00:10:35 Rachel Madel
And it should totally. It's funny because in this new course, I share videos of me, and, like, I'm going through hours and hours of clinical videos that we take of my assessments, my therapy, all the things, right? And I'm like, wow. Like, there's one video clip I share, and I'm totally, like, trying to elicit a verb for this student. I'm like, he is. And I'm trying to get him to say jumping, right? And the student sang at the gym. Cause it's an elephant jumping in the gym. And I totally disregarded what the student said. And I was just like, at the gym, I was like, but he's also jumping. And so I share that video as a way to be like, yeah, see what I did wrong here? And I'm still doing that. I mean, I took that video maybe last year, and so it's just like, it's a constant reminder that there's no finish line at being a great communication partner for someone. It really is constant evolution. And still to this day, I teach people all the time about following a child's lead, attributing meaning, building off what they're communicating. And I still watch my therapy back, and they're like, wow, look at me there. It just showcases that we are always able to look back on what we did and reflect and realize we could have done something different. And that's what's great about reflective practice, is that I reflect back, I watch myself back, and I see all the areas that I can improve.
00:12:08 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, I wish someone had said that to me back in my grad school days, because I remember leaving grad school and then starting my job and after, like, okay, well, I've. And people can't see it, but I'm slapping my hands together saying, yep, okay, I did it. I I now know what I need to know to be an amazing professional. Come listen to me, because you have all this. But really what I needed to know back then was I'm always going to be evolving and growing and changing and learning to. And even if I know the stuff, we use this example all the time when we talk about coaching. I know how to throw. I know conceptually how to throw a football. It doesn't mean I can throw a perfect spiral. Right? So same thing. I know conceptually that I should follow the student's lead or I shouldn't necessarily do this or that, whatever the skill or strategy might be. But I always make mistakes. Everyone throws interceptions every once in a while. It's that reflection that you said and leaning into that, that's the strong piece, which I bet is part of what you're doing in AAC allies. You're inviting people to look at that practice, look at their own practice, maybe even record their own practice, and then go back and watch it to grow their skills.
00:13:15 Rachel Madel
Absolutely, Chris. That's definitely what I'm doing. I'm also sharing some videos and having people think about what do you see happening here? What are the strengths that the student is showing you? What are some reflective questions you could ask this parent? So, yeah, I'm really pumped. And there's a lot of interaction and a lot of videos and things like that, which I feel like make the learning process a lot more engaging for people and salient. It's kind of like I'm not just talking high level theory here, like, watch this video of me having an interaction with a child or a parent with their child, and then what questions would you ask? That is the way to get better at things like coaching and even just observing our students and recognizing some things. I love doing those types of exercises. Live with people, because inevitably someone will always notice something that I didn't even notice about the video. I'm like, wow, you're right. I wouldn't even caught that. But yes. And so it is really fun to get that engagement. But I feel like the asynchronous learning is a really great way to create bite sized chunks of information and allow for that simmering and integration to happen. And so, yeah, I'm really excited that we have the technology to do these things and I have the ability to share all these ideas.
00:14:31 Chris Bugaj
Well, something else I'm excited about is the interview today. Tell us about the interview.
00:14:36 Rachel Madel
I had the absolute pleasure of interviewing Amanda Dieckman, who talks all about low demand parenting. And I have to tell you, Chris, this was one of my favorite interviews. Amanda's perspectives are so refreshing, and I really just loved listening to the way that she approaches parenting. Amanda is not only an autistic adult, but she also has autistic children. And I just loved listening to her explain how she kind of took all the information that she was getting out there and was like, you know what? This doesn't really work for me and this doesn't really work for my kids. And so we talk all about aligning with what kids are showing us, really being supportive and nurturing, because a lot of times when we see our kids become dysregulated, it's rooted in trauma and anxiety and all these other things. And so it was a really great interview. She has a book that I actually just got and I'm excited to read called low demand parenting. And I'm really excited to share the interview that I did with Amanda Deekman.
00:15:52 Lance McLemore
This October, joined impact Voices at the AAC community in Arlington, Virginia. Hello, I am Lance McLemore, a board member of Impact Voices. Don't miss our second live AAC hangout celebration at the Crystal Gateway myriad on October 17 and 18th. Our theme is building futures together to empower AAC users. Connect policymakers, employers, and each other. Hear from AAC users who are shaping the future. Explore our challenges and opportunities, and discover how we can all work together for a more inclusive world. Register Day@Impactvoices.org dot we can't wait to see you and iv live 2024.
00:16:49 Rachel Madel
Welcome to talking with Tech. I'm your host, Rachel Madl, joined today by Amanda Dieckman. Amanda, I'm so excited to have you here.
00:16:56 Amanda Diekman
Thank you.
00:16:58 Rachel Madel
Okay, so just start off by telling our listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do.
00:17:03 Amanda Diekman
I am low demand Amanda online, and I love talking about all things that have to do with aligning expectations with our struggling kids so that everyone in the family can access ease and joy. And really, the centerpiece is radical acceptance, saying to our kids, I see you right where you are. I can be here with you, and we can trust each other enough to figure this out as a team. And I've written a book on low demand parenting. I have three neurodivergent kids, and I'm a late diagnosed autistic adult myself.
00:17:37 Rachel Madel
I love it. And I'm really excited to have you on today because I feel like oftentimes in this work that we do with students who have complex communication needs, we're always kind of circling back to this idea of a demand. Communication as a demand. All these expectations that our students face, you know, every day when they go to school, when they get home from school, during all the therapies that they're involved in. Um, and so I really wanted to kind of shine a light on perhaps a different path, perhaps a different way that we can start framing this. Um, and so I'm really excited to dive in with you. Um, can you just start off by kind of like, giving a sense of, like, what is low demands? Like, because I know some of our people who are listening in the audience are like, yeah, but like, don't we need to have demands? Don't we need to have expectations in this world that we're living in?
00:18:25 Amanda Diekman
Yeah, totally. I mean, it's essential that we're saying low demand and not no demand, so nobody freak out, really. The model for low demand is all around what scientists have discovered over the last 25 years about the nervous system as this central guide inside of us that touches every piece of our body and has one central question. Am I safe? If we are safe, then the nervous system unlocks all this potency and power inside of our brain. We can learn, we can grow, we can stretch, we can trust, we can feel, we can do so many things when our nervous system checks, yes, on that box. And when the nervous system checks, no, no, you're not safe, it kicks off this equally beautiful protective mechanism, a series of switches inside the body that help protect the person. You're not safe. So we're going to do all these things. We're going to shut down the thing brain, we're going to reduce access to memory. We're going to confine your options to one or two to keep it really actionable. The goal is to survive. And so what low demand is really saying is, this is human nature. This is how we were built. To be as humans, is to have this on off switch inside of us, safe, not safe. And I that when we work with that system, when we say, okay, then our goal is to create safety as much of the time as possible. It's to let go of all of the things in our environment that push us into the not safe system, knowing that that's always going to happen. But there are so many controllable variables, especially for us as parents or therapists or providers. There's so much that we can control, that we can release, that we can. Those would be the demands. Anything that's sending our system into the not safe. So simply, I call it anything that is too hard in the present moment. I say that to myself. I say that to my kids. Is this too hard right now? And over time, we all are learning, oh, too hard feels like not safe and not safe is too hard. When we are in not safe system, we need attunement, we need connection, we need co regulation, we need space, we need all of the. We need to be able to come back to safety so that we can move forward. But there is no path forward down the not safe pathway until we return to safety. Nothing good is going to happen down there. There's no learning, there's no growth. All of that happens. It's the only way that it happens, honestly, is through safety. So low demand is really saying, this is what's true about us as human beings. We are not built to learn through not safe. And I mean that on every level, we all that really happens down that pathway is the accumulation of memories that go into a particular part of our brain that we call trauma.
00:21:44 Rachel Madel
I love that you're framing this around the idea of safety, because I feel like that word really resonates. Like, as an educator, it's like, as a parent, as a human being, we want everyone to feel safe. And I feel like so often this is perhaps misunderstood in the population of students that we're working with. And as a practitioner myself, I'm always trying to come through a lens of curiosity and really observing what's happening and not automatically jumping to a judgment around, like, well, the student just doesn't want to, or they're not motivated. It's like really coming from a place of deep empathy. And, you know, what I hear you saying is, how do we start looking through this lens of, do our children feel safe in this moment? And I really like that framing because I feel like it's something that we can all resonate with. We're like, yes, of course we want safety. That's an absolute necessity as a human being to be safe. But so often we're not even noticing when our children aren't feeling safe. So can you kind of expand on that? Like, what are some signs that a child showing us that they're not safe, especially given the fact that they might not be able to access communication in that moment of dysregulation?
00:23:02 Amanda Diekman
Yeah, I always assume, every time I educate parents or work with my own kids, I always assume that we're getting most of our information nonverbally. So I wrote the whole book and operate here as a parent with 95% of what we do is nonverbal and only a small piece is that back and forth communication where there's some kind of prompt and response. But even that can easily be done without explicit verbal communication. It can be done in all kinds of supportive ways. It can be done with bodily communication. But even still. Even with that, it's a tiny chunk set up with that. That this is very much a collaborative model between adult and child. It's very much. It's. It's anti adultism. So it is really trying to break down the idea that our adults are more human, more capable than children. Even this basic idea that people throw out there about, like, well, kids brains aren't developed for blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, even that science is not as. As firm a science as you might think. Like, there's so much wisdom that children have access to that adults do not sound so true. Yes, there's this idea that our brains are better at doing pretty much anything. I feel like, scientifically is up for debate.
00:24:31 Rachel Madel
Yes.
00:24:32 Amanda Diekman
So low demand is saying on a basic level, there is a deep equality here, and that that equality is true for everyone. It does not depend on your ability to access verbal speech for whether or not your communication is trustworthy and valid, whether or not you can be trusted as a meaningful interpreter of your own life. I think even babies and toddlers can be trusted as meaningful interpreters of their life. Just kind of wanted to set that as a framework.
00:25:08 Rachel Madel
No, I think that's really great. I love that you shared about that, because I feel like so often we're looking at verbal communication as kind of the standard for someone sharing their experience. And I feel like if we tune in a little bit, we start noticing all the ways that there is so much being communicated in non verbal ways.
00:25:32 Amanda Diekman
Especially because your prompt was about safety. And I think that safety in particular, it defies verbal speech. If you ask somebody, like, tell me how you know you're safe, I guarantee you're going to get a long pause. People might close their eyes. They might stare off into the distance. They might touch their body. They're going through their memory. They're like, how do I translate this thing that I know into words? I can't do it. It's hard. And so if we flip that on its head and say, okay, then there's knowledge. Safety doesn't primarily belong in the realm of verbal speech. It belongs in the wisdom of the body. So how do you know if a child who you are with is feeling safe? I think your primary tool is your own body. Does your body feel safe right now, that there's literally incredible science that is looking at this interaction between two nervous systems, that there's a. Just like the way that they found out that trees can communicate with one another through their root system. We are the same. We are doing the bulk of our communication with other people through this electromagnetic field that exists between the two of us where our signals are syncing up. So your body might be telling you as a first signal that this other body isn't feeling safe. It might be that you're feeling a little ramped up in your nervous system. Maybe your gas starts kicking online. Your heart's beating a little faster, you're talking a little faster. Your desire to control this kid might be a first signal that they're not feeling safe. That's, again, we're adults with decades of memories and automated systems coming online. Maybe when we were kids and we acted that way, adults near us controlled us. And so that system is kicking straight on, you know, so there are so many nonverbal signals that a nervous system is escalating. You can look at pretty much every single bodily system will be telling you something. So eyes might be telling you by the speed of their movement, whether it's jerky and fast or glazed and gazing off into the distance. You might see it in the ways that musculature in the neck, shoulders, and hands, whether they're clenched, whether they're grabbing onto themselves or rocking side to side. You might notice it in the. Whether or not the emotional tenor seems to match the room. Sometimes a kid who's feeling really distressed will look silly or happy when it's really not. Like, that's not the dominant narrative of the room. You might notice a kid is looking really withdrawn and sad at a time where everyone else is kind of jubilant and excited. So you might notice, like, hmm, that's not what I would expect. I wonder if that's a stress signal or a signal of unsafety. And then the final thing is just this whole category of things that we just straight up blame and shame. There's crying and whining and pulling and pushing and hitting and spitting and biting and scratching and throwing things and ripping things. Those are all signals of unsafety, every single one of them. A kid who doesn't feel safe. And we put a lot of energy into ABC, what happened? Antecedent behavior, consequence, what happened? And how can we manipulate it? I would highly recommend setting that whole mentality on the shelf and instead asking a much more basic question. Does this child feel safe? And if they don't feel safe, what happened to set their nervous system down this unsafe pathway? That actually may even be a secondary question. You might begin to wonder that in the moment, but really your primary question is what do they need right now? Because bringing them back to safety is your primary goal.
00:29:46 Rachel Madel
Yeah, I'm sure that as you start to kind of shift into observation and really tuning in, you start to notice patterns about how we got here. Right. And I'm sure that that's something that doesn't necessarily happen or isn't super obvious at first, but I'm sure over time, especially with parents who know their children better than anyone, start to recognize, like, oh, that sound, or oh, this part of the day, or, oh, like you start to kind of start anticipating, I'm sure as you tune in, which I think is, you know, just kind of a reminder that this probably takes time. Like this process, this kind of reframing and shift in perspective is not something where immediately we're like, now I know, and now I know what to do. Like anything else, I'm sure it takes time. Can you explain a little bit about how we get to safety? We notice that there's not safety here. Perhaps, you know, we have an idea as to why or we don't yet, but I. What kinds of things can we help our students with as far as co regulation and really getting them back to a place where they do feel safe?
00:30:57 Amanda Diekman
Yeah, well, the primary lens that I bring, and there's a lot of great teachers out there about what safety looks like. So I guess I just always want to say that my goal isn't to be as comprehensive as possible. I want to introduce one key skill set into the conversation and make that as robust as possible. So there's a lot of ways that we can bring safety. What I would like to offer into the conversation is that letting things go is an essential piece of the safety puzzle that has been very marginalized within the parent coaching and the professional community. This dates back to some parenting research in the fifties where there was this categorization of parents and a study looking at patterns and habits and which ones had the best long term outcomes and thus finding that permissiveness, which was associated with a high degree of warmth from the parents, but a low degree of control over their children, that that had the worst outcomes of the three parenting styles. So worse than spanking and yelling was releasing control over your kids. So goes the research from the fifties and sixties. Right. And like that has now occupied millions and millions of brains for a lot of decades, I challenged the research. I think that the original model was deeply flawed. That is very likely that the parents who were coded permissive were really neurodivergent and that they were simply operating so far outside of the norm for what was considered appropriate at the time, that it was always going to be less successful in the eyes of the fifties and sixties. But more importantly, I think so much harm has been done to parents and children and to their relationship by this ever present fear of being permissive. You'll even see it in today's teaching. Some beautiful parenting experts who are doing great work around gentle parenting, still going to a really big degree to differentiate themselves from permissiveness and still saying, yeah, but I'm still firm, I'm still in control. I'm still the last word. I think that that messaging is really harmful. It was harmful for me and for many of the parents that I work with. So what I want to say is when your kid is deeply dysregulated, it's often because something has entered their environment that is too hard for them. There is an expectation for them in that moment that is unrealistic and it may be a baseline expectation that they manage it well. It's like, you know, no, we can't get that thing. And underlying sneaky. And you need to handle this well, right?
00:34:00 Rachel Madel
Yes. That hidden expectation of like. Yeah, just like regulate your emotions around it.
00:34:07 Amanda Diekman
Yeah, exactly. And then when the child doesn't handle it well, the parent interprets it through a language of control or testing boundaries. And so then they respond by being even more firm and rigid and maybe imposing additional consequences onto that reaction. You know, if you don't stop crying, I'm going to take you home immediately, or you won't get that other thing that you wanted and a withdrawal of connection and warmth. Because the idea is that if I give them warmth and connection in the middle of this meltdown, it's going to teach them that this is a good way to get what they want. And then they're going to melt down like this over and over and over again because it's now an effective strategy. This is like the old school thinking, right? It's not that old school. This is the dominant thinking, let's just say. And what I would like to introduce into the conversation is that letting things go in that moment involves asking what is too hard right now? Is it the expectation that we walk out of here without something from this particular aisle? You know, I'm not saying you gotta buy the giant lego set that they want. But maybe a minifigure is an essential accommodation in order to get the big thing done, which is to leave the grocery store with the groceries in the cart so that you can feed your family for the next week. Right? Like that's what matters. That's the big picture. And that when we accommodate, when we drop the demand and when we stay connected, when our kid is communicating to us, this is too hard for me that. That actually it doesn't do the thing we're scared it's going to do. It just kind of create some sort of spoiled monster who uses meltdowns to manipulate us. It doesn't do that. It actually says, I see you, I hear you, I am with you. I can see that that's too hard. I'm listening when you tell me it's too hard and I will let go of expectations that are misaligned for you. And next time I'll do my own work so that we are aligned going in. So we'll say at the beginning I could tell something was too hard about going to the grocery store. Is it that you can't manage going in there for that long? Or the lights too bright? Is it too far to walk? Are you.
00:36:30 Rachel Madel
That always happens to me. It's like a new setting. With iOS, I'm like, cool. It's fun when I'm with kids, but when I'm with adults I'm like, cool.
00:36:37 Amanda Diekman
It always has to do with when I'm counting. I don't know.
00:36:40 Rachel Madel
I'm a hand talker, so it happens all the time.
00:36:43 Amanda Diekman
You get it? Yeah, whatever. Was too hard. It's not saying that your solution is every time I buy you the minifigure, it's saying that every time you're going to figure out what was too hard, you're going to return to the relationship, return to safety, and prioritize listening to this kid's communication and trusting them that they are not trying to manipulate you, that they are genuinely communicating distress and that their internal collaboration, or what's the right word, their internal barometer of what hard and too hard feels like is trustworthy, that they are always doing their best to tell you what is going on.
00:37:33 Rachel Madel
Yeah, I mean, I think that there's so many things in what you just said. I think one is just that trusting because I think that we create so much disconnection when we assume that we assume the worst in a lot of situations with kids. And I also hear you saying kind of the validation of a child's experience is such a big piece of this. And I feel like even that is oftentimes missed with adults who are interacting with children, is like, I want to recognize that this is really hard for you and that comes from such a place of love. And I feel like so often, like you said, we're doubling down on the demand and we're then creating walls up where we're creating separation from connection and love and the only things that can help us get out of that state where we don't feel safe. And so I love everything I'm hearing. Is there ways that people who are kind of new to this idea can start building awareness? Cause I think part of the first step is, like, I have awareness of my clenching of control and my patterning and things that perhaps have just become so habituated that I don't even have awareness around it. So what are some small steps that people can start taking to kind of start aligning with this type of an approach?
00:38:59 Amanda Diekman
Yeah, I've got two thoughts in mind. One is to get to know your own nervous system response, and you might choose something pretty benign. Pick something in your life that's just a bit stressful. Like, maybe when it's time to order at a restaurant or getting takeout and you pull out the menu and you feel like something inside your body, like, oh, God, I don't know what I like to eat or something. There is tricky. Start with that and just tune in and notice. Where do you first feel it in your body? Is it like a flash in your tummy? Is it something? Does your vision swim? Do you feel clammy hands? Do you grind your teeth? Like, can you find your early warning signal that something might be too hard or they just might be kicking on your stress signals? Maybe it's not too hard yet, but it's getting there and developing that vocabulary for yourself over time. Maybe you give yourself a month and your goal is like a month from now. I'd really love to know. Maybe there's two or three different levels to my nervous system distress, and I've got kind of a dominant signal for each one. You know, my first one is that I feel a little queasy in my stomach. My second one is that that if too many people are talking to me, I'm going to start to shut down. And the last one is when I am starting to smack things like, you will not. And I'm clapping my hands for those who maybe can't hear it through the microphone. And maybe your phrasing is getting choppier. This will be true for every child you meet, and it takes time to decode what are their levels and what are their systems. But I think getting starting with ourselves is really important. And then there's so much information to be had. Once we know those things, we can be like, oh, here's a list of things that make me queasy in my tummy. That's probably my low level stress, and I like to divide. I talked about a demand as anything that's too hard. But we have a lot of things that are just hard. They're hard, but we can do them. They fit in our window of tolerance. They kick on the system, but it's not at such a level that we're fully and not safe. We're like, okay, I'm safe, but this is hard. And that's called the window of tolerance in, you know, more technical speak. And another thing that can help, as kind of a beginning step, is to identify what your child or what your window of tolerance looks like, what supports the window of tolerance. So, from one of my kids, and this is where technology can be so helpful, one of my kids needs a lot of technology support in the window of tolerance when things are hard, but not too hard. So a great example is that he's a little bit hungry, but doesn't know what he wants to eat. If I start using verbal speech and listing out things, or if I hand him. He's kind of a beginning reader, so if I hand him, like, a word based menu, that would be overwhelming. Listening to words, reading words, everything to do with that isn't helpful. But if I slide in a piece of technology at that moment with visuals and easy access to motor planning, to say, oh, I want this, this, and this, boom we've got, we're smooth sailing. You know, it goes from hard to easy. But if I took that hard and said, well, what do you want? And then expected him to produce verbal speech, we'd go into too hard meltdown mode within seconds. So hard is a great place to think about what supports can I add in that? Help us stay in this window of tolerance or even push us towards safety. Sometimes slowing down is an essential accommodation when things are in hard. Sometimes when we notice our kids moving into hard, we speed up. So we're like, oh, no, I don't want anything to go wrong. Let's go fast. What our kids need is more time to process. They're working it through inside their heads, or they're feeling things in their body, or they're trying to access their tools or whatever, and we just need to talk less. We need to, like, relax our shoulders, make our faces smile, look gentle. Like, communicate with our nervous system. You are safe. I will stay right here with you. I'm not going to push you. Let's just stay here until you're ready to take your next step. Sometimes that's what we need to stay in the window of tolerance. So I'd say that would be the next thing, is to play around. Like, can you stay in hard without switching into too hard?
00:43:55 Rachel Madel
I feel like, Amanda, as you were kind of shifting your own demeanor, as you were explaining that, I was like, co regulating with you, I was like, yes, I feel more calm, like she is embodying calm. And I feel like it's a perfect example of how we can do that co regulation with students. And I love the idea of getting to know our own nervous systems first. I think that generally speaking, most of us are walking around. So in our minds, in our thoughts, and all the things that we're thinking all day long, we don't tap into our bodies, we don't actually experience what it feels like. And oftentimes we're so cerebral that we're having an experience emotionally and we're in our minds about, why is this happening? Or, I don't want this to happen. And there's resistance, right? Instead of just kind of being in your body, figuring out where it is in your body and just being with that and being present with it. And I think the more we can learn how to do that for ourselves, I'm sure that skill translates into one being able to better co regulate, to having better empathy and understanding and compassion for what our children are experiencing. So I love kind of that framework because I feel like I wouldn't have automatically gone there. Like, my brain's kind of like, okay, like, what do we do and what do we do with them? And it's like, well, what do we do with ourselves? Because, like, we're an equal player in this interaction. And how we show up influences greatly how our children can show up. And so I just love that distinction.
00:45:26 Amanda Diekman
And oftentimes parents get this message, and I imagine the same is true for clinicians. You can speak to this, but that we need to remain calm all the time, that it is our calm. You know, there's all these catchphrases, like, don't join their storm, invite them into your calm. Like, are you calm enough to, like, blah, blah, blah, blah? And I really don't like that. I think that's really unhelpful. In fact, especially I'm speaking now as a parent of a child with very, not one child, three children with very complex needs and with a very strong fight response, which means that I've seen a lot, my body has seen a lot, our home has hurt a lot. And when people tell me, well, you just need to remain calm, I feel very gaslit. Like, my nervous system feels like I'm living with a wild animal, and you're telling me I need to be more calm. It really tells the parent, hey, this is actually secretly your fault. If you were just better at being calm, then your kid would obviously feel more calm, and then everything will be fine, right? And that's not. It's not true. I tried to stay calm through impossible scenarios so long, and it led me to PTSD because it's like the ultimate form of masking. It's like whatever you're actually feeling, push it really, really far down so that you can stay calm. And I actually think it's dysregulating to our kids because we are humans and we cannot remain calm in the face of a very dysregulated fellow human, especially one who might hurt us. So we're not staying calm. We're actually dissociating. And dissociation is also a protective response. It's the furthest down, the not safe pathway we can go. It's the very last stop when the body is like, I am so not safe that I can't even be present with myself. I'm going to go away. And we cannot co regulate from a space of dissociation. And our kids are interpreting that it actually really ramps up their fear because they're like, when I try to tell my truth to my person, I get really loud and I'm scared. I'm scared of how loud I am, I'm scared of how out of control I am. I'm trying to express this thing, and then worst of all, my grown up goes away. And that layers fear on top of fear, which in a brain, if we go into the brain science of that, what it does is it tightly wires together for them the act of communicating with their grown up with fear. And it becomes harder and harder for them to do it in what we know they need, which is trusting connection. Hold on, let me pause. My kid is calling me in the other room, which is another way we use technology.
00:48:30 Rachel Madel
I love it.
00:48:31 Amanda Diekman
Hey, baby.
00:48:33 Rachel Madel
Wait, didn't you say you're going to get Zack's piece?
00:48:38 Amanda Diekman
McDonald's? It's right outside the door.
00:48:46 Rachel Madel
I love it. These are important things to children, these.
00:48:51 Amanda Diekman
Are very important things. Yes, that's right. Dissociation.com. i think children need our genuine selves present, even if that means we are feeling bigger feelings. And obviously, if we are raging at them or if our, you know, if the alternative is dissociation or we're hurting someone with our words or our actions, dissociation is there to protect everyone. But let's assume that we're getting at least some of the care that we need outside of those spaces with our kids. Like, for me, it was intensive therapy and EMDR and a lot of trauma healing so that I could shift out of the freeze of dissociation and to genuinely feeling my feelings in a way that wasn't too much for them, for that situation. But if we're doing that and then we begin to bring that into communication with our kids, we're beginning to say, like, I don't know, I'm feeling pretty big right now. I don't even really know what this is. I need a minute. They're learning so much about what it looks like to be a human that we cannot teach by just saying, well, when you get really mad, you need to take a step back and take a deep breath. It makes it sound so easy. But when you are at that place, it is so hard, it is so confusing, it is so difficult that I really think kids learn it best by watching. And they're like, I felt that. I felt that you did a thing. You were like a rage monster about to explode on me, and I got really scared. And then you did something. You, like, shook your body and closed your eyes and drank some water, and you came back and it was better, and I felt safer, and you were okay. And then they're like, what is that? That's real. That is something we can not. That's what modeling. Modeling sounds also. So nice, so easy. Yeah.
00:51:04 Rachel Madel
Yeah.
00:51:05 Amanda Diekman
It's not nice. It's not pretty. It's vulnerable, it's intense, it's honest. That's the only. That's the only way it can really be. Everything else is contrived.
00:51:18 Rachel Madel
Mm mm. Yeah. I like to think that children learn more from what we are than what we teach. And I feel like this is a perfect example of, like, embodying the experience and through that experience, really showing, like, how we can get to a better space. Because I think you're right. Everyone's like, we just can take a deep breath, like, myself included. Like, you know, I've done those teachings with kids, and, you know, it does feel very contrived in a lot of ways and also seemingly impossible. But when you see someone else successfully do it, it's so powerful.
00:51:56 Amanda Diekman
Just a sec. That was for you. Get anything from achilles? I didn't know you needed it. Cause you were so full. Not falling. You thought I left, but I had ordered it and it was on the front doorstep. Yeah. Was that so funny?
00:52:14 Rachel Madel
I didn't get it.
00:52:15 Amanda Diekman
I didn't. You didn't go out and get it, but you got it now. Yeah. Yay. Good. But you're not happy. Cause all you got was a cookie.
00:52:25 Rachel Madel
You stole a cookie.
00:52:26 Amanda Diekman
You wanna get on this? Do you want some french fries? There's extras in Collins. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. Do you guys be okay splitting some of those french fries? Because there's lots of food. I'm looking at this clock. I can tell we do not have very long left in our conversation.
00:52:53 Rachel Madel
Love.
00:52:53 Amanda Diekman
They're good.
00:52:56 Rachel Madel
I love it. I'm seeing this parenting in action.
00:53:00 Amanda Diekman
Yeah, I know. I always tell people that I'm like, this is my real life.
00:53:03 Rachel Madel
Like, I love fake.
00:53:06 Amanda Diekman
I homeschool full time, and this is my business. So we just do it all at the same time. Totally.
00:53:14 Rachel Madel
Okay. I want to. I'm trying to think where we just left off. I was saying that you kind of modeled this in real time. You show that it's possible. Okay, let me transition. Because you're right. We're running low on time. I want to talk about kind of the work that you do. I would love this approach. I love these perspectives for parents who are listening, for educators who are listening. You know, what's the best way to kind of keep going down this path of learning with you? I think you have a membership site, right?
00:53:46 Amanda Diekman
I do. Yeah, you can. There's lots of paid ways, of course, but I want to emphasize a couple of the things that are freely available. That might be a nice next step if somebody's like, I'm intrigued. I've been taught to avoid permissiveness at all costs. I'm feeling convicted. Maybe there's something else here for me. There's a quiz on my website that's really designed for parents. That's why is everything so hard? And it's a series of questions that you can answer, and it ends with a few concrete next steps that might help you go a little bit deeper into what a low demand aligned next step for you might be. So I feel like that's free. And once you do it, you'll also get weekly emails from me with all kinds of goodies and podcasts and free next steps. And for providers, the best thing, something that may be really, really helpful, is the book low demand parenting that I wrote is intentionally short. I wrote it to myself when I was in the darkest part of my parenting journey, when I had it up to my ears with advice, and I was super overwhelmed. And I wanted it to be something that parents could easily both connect to but also implement. So it's got sick steps. It's got worksheets and scripts to use when you're trying to explain to people why you're buying your kid this popsicle when they're throwing a fit, ways to actually start to live this out. I feel like investing in that book to have in your lending library to offer out to parents would be a really concrete next step. You get to read it and then. And then just keep giving it to others who might be in a struggle spot. Those would be my two concrete next steps. But you can also find me in all the social media places at low demand. Amanda. And I'm always offering workshops and trainings and things to help spread this message so that both us and our kids can learn that it's okay to let ourselves off the hook, we're okay the way we are, and that truly letting things go is a key piece of the path toward ease and joy that we're all looking to find.
00:56:19 Rachel Madel
I love that. And I know that there's a lot of parents who are listening that are really resonating with that sentiment, and it's like you're giving them permission to just be. And I feel like so often, especially, you know, parents that have children who have a lot of needs and a lot of therapies and a lot of things, and they're constantly kind of hearing this message that, you know, their child's not enough, they're not doing enough. And, like, what I'm hearing you say is that, like, no, like, let's. Let's release it. Let's just, like, let go of that. And I can imagine a parent hearing that is really healing and really powerful.
00:57:01 Amanda Diekman
Yeah, I mean, the do more, be more, try harder mentality drove me under the ground. It did not work, and it didn't work for myself over my 40 years of being an undiagnosed autistic adult. Do more, try harder, be more. It didn't work. I ended up hating myself and exhausted and so overwhelmed, and it definitely didn't work when it came to my kids. So, yeah, maybe there's another way for you that's a lot more about release and freedom and a lot less about hustle and proving yourself. Maybe you've got exactly the right kid, and you are exactly the right grownup.
00:57:46 Rachel Madel
I love that. That's a message for all of us. Like, we are where we are and where we are is perfect, right? It's like so often we're just striving and this and that and all these things, and it's like, it's exhausting. And so it's just like, be where you're at and know that's exactly where you're supposed to be, and it's a beautiful place to be.
00:58:05 Amanda Diekman
You got it.
00:58:07 Rachel Madel
I love it. Amanda, thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of your wisdom. I'm so excited to share this episode. And all the work that you're doing is really powerful and, you know, not only impacting parents, but also professionals thinking through this lens and really tuning into our students and what they're showing us and what they need and how we can best support them. And so I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and share all of this with us.
00:58:36 Amanda Diekman
Thank you so much. Yeah, that's my. That's my deep message. That's my deep. Why. That's why I keep showing up is hopefully to give that gift as many places as I can. Thank you.
00:58:46 Rachel Madel
I love it. So for talking with tech, I'm Rachel Maidel, joined by Amanda Dieckman. Thank you guys so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.