Episode 295: Rémi Morin: Creating the Canadian-French Version of LAMP:WFL as a Parent

This week, we share Chris and Rachel’s interview with Rémi Morin, father of a daughter who uses AAC user full time, a daughter who uses AAC part time, and a daughter who does not use AAC. He shares some of his many insights gained as the parent of an AAC user, including how he came across AAC as an option of this daughters, and, when he couldn’t find a Canadian French version of LAMP Words for Life, he created his own!

Before the interview, Chris shares about a recent experience he had as moderator for a panel of students to talk about their disabilities for the State Educational Technology Director’s Association, including the standing ovation at the end for the students!

Sometimes, Rémi’s daughter who uses AAC full time needs a lot of modeling of a word before she will use it, and she often needs to see it in multiple contexts. Rémi says he must be “tenacious” when teaching her words.

Key ideas this week:

🔑 If you go out in the world looking for a language resource and you can’t find it, that is a sign that you could potentially make that resource to help yourself and, in the future, share it with everyone else who may need the same resource.

🔑 They will be rolling out Rémi’s French translation of LAMP to everyone in French Canada, with a possible rollout to other countries in the future!

🔑 Rémi’s perfect AAC software would be web based, and would work with all the Android and iOS devices they use in the home, including phones.

🔑 When we say someone’s “AAC system”, that should be the sum of the different means of communication for a person, not just one AAC app. A person’s system could include multiple high tech apps, low tech solutions like core boards, pen and paper, and more!

Link’s from this week’s episode:

CAST.org - the group that came up with universal design for learning and, more recently, worked with Chris to create his student-led panel.

PRC Article on Rémi’s Canadian French LAMP Words for Life

Transcript of the Episode

Please Note: This transcript was generated using speech recognition & AI tools; it may contain some grammatical and/or spelling errors.

00:00:08
Welcome to Talking With Tech. I'm your host Rachel Madel, joined, as always, by Chris Bugaj. Hey, Chris.

00:00:13
Hey Rachel, how you doing? How you feeling? Are you Are you staying awake for this podcast recording?

00:00:18
I'm trying to. I need more coffee maybe.

00:00:22
Right now, you're back in Philadelphia visiting mom.

00:00:24
Yeah, I'm back on the East Coast for lots of speaking events and also Thanksgiving.

00:00:32
Yeah.

00:00:32
Yeah, Well, welcome back to the East Coast. We're happy to have you. Looking forward to seeing you in a few days. Like right at the time of this recording, Ash is about a week away and that's where we'll get to see each other in person, which has been a hot 2nd. So looking forward to it.

00:00:45
I know. I feel like the last time we saw each other was in Virginia. Remember, we did those podcast recordings in your car.

00:00:52
Yes, yes, you came and you stayed at my house.

00:00:55
I know that was great.

00:00:57
So let me tell you about something that an event that I got to participate in recently. Sometimes we just get to do some really cool stuff. And I had a really cool thing happen to me this past week. It's something that I was invited to do a couple weeks ago. And then we're working behind the scenes with an organization to make happen.

00:01:14
And then it happened. So here's, here's the whole story, Rachel. So weeks ago, someone from Cast. So there's an organization called cast.org. They're sort of famous for coming up with and and being the main supporters of universal design for learning.

00:01:30
And so you can go learn all sorts of research and all sorts of great stuff from Cast. Well, I have connections there at Cast and have made friends with almost everybody that works at Cast. And they said, hey, Chris, there's this organization that is having an event in Arlington, which is in your neck of the woods in the Northern Virginia area. And they're looking for some support. Specifically, what they're looking for is a panel of students who have disabilities to talk about how they use technology to support their learning.

00:02:02
And they thought, hey, we know a guy, let's contact Chris. And so the organization is called the State Educational Technology Directors Association or SETDA. And they put said let me, let me try And I put my feelers out through Northern Virginia to see if we come up with some students. And sure enough we did. My colleagues in Fairfax County Public Schools said yes, we know a student, we have a freshman with dyslexia or a dyslexic freshman and who said yes, I like talking about this and I want to promote the change and make the change happen in my world.

00:02:35
So and for other other students, so I have yes thumbs up. I will be involved in the student panel and then we had a student in my own school district, Aladdin County Public Schools, actually a student that I've known since preschool. I was their assistant technology person for for years and years and years who uses AAC. Currently using Proloquo for text. She is a junior in a local high school, actually the same high school my daughter goes to.

00:03:00
So I've been floating in this girl's life for many, many years and been a sometimes a direct supporter like I was directly working. But then you know since then my change in roles, I've been more of a outside support satellite support person giving advice and and suggestions from from the side. Anyway, these two young ladies decided that they both wanted to participate and they came. This was last Tuesday. They came to this event where I got to be the moderator and they came up on stage and we had an hour long question and answer where I asked the questions and they answered those questions in front of this room full of state level directors of educational technology.

00:03:45
Like these are the people at the state level organization. Like these are the high like highest you can get in the state thinking about educational technology. And these two students telling us telling them what, what they need more of and what they need less of. And that was the very first question, a little bit more of this and a little bit less of this. And the very first thing this the girl from Loud and said typed out on her proloquo for text was I want less note taking, less lectures, more hands on and more project based learning.

00:04:20
And I I nearly dropped the mic. I'm like this is what like if you've ever come to my keynote or talk with this is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Like it's not about just showing up and getting through a course, it's about making it a fun experience. I mean, every listener of our podcast knows this has been what we've been trumpeting on the podcast is make the learning fun. And here's she's saying, can you make it meaningful?

00:04:40
Can you make it fun? Can you make it engaging? Not just show up, take some notes and spit it back out in the test. And then the the 2 girls didn't know each other. So then the the girl from Fairfax was like, yes, exactly.

00:04:52
I felt the same thing. And before you know it, the hour was up and they were sharing all about text to speech, all about redesigning instruction, all about minimizing, standardized testing, all about all these different ways to support, support us. All the stuff you've heard on this podcast over the years, all the but it was so good because the people in the room got to hear it directly from the students, you know. And I got to trumpet, you know, our our our message about evidence based practice. And it's like listen to them, just listen to them.

00:05:21
Like just listen to them. They're going to tell you what we need. And at the end. This is the best part, Rachel. Best part.

00:05:26
So the end of the hour standing ovation for these two young ladies stand like everyone got up and clap roomful about a maybe a hundred 150 people stand up clapping for these for these two. And it was just this heart warming like the needle moved, like I felt the earth shift on its axis a little bit like towards the sides of good in that moment. And I was just so tickled to be a part of it.

00:05:51
Chris, that sounds so amazing and I'm so excited to hear like what an impact, you know, and I think that it's so cool because in, you know 2023 at the time of this recording, it's never been a better time to share information and for people to share their own experiences. And I feel like that's exactly what was done and to think how powerful that is. And hopefully, you know, a lot of shifts and changes will happen based off of that, the hour that you spent. And yeah, it's just like, what a great, what a great story.

00:06:29
Yeah, yeah. I really felt like the the, the last few minutes of it were AQ and A, where they got to ask the students some questions. And the questions are really powerful about like what kind of things can happen at IEP meetings. And so immediately it was like, let's jump over and ask the parents, They're sitting right down here, let's throw the mic to them. You know, it was in the style that we do, you know, where it wasn't so stuffy.

00:06:52
And it's a presentation. And let me show you, you know here's the content it was more this let's have a conversation and they yes, they they just slayed in a way that these people I hope they go back and actually do something with it. You know I'll be, I'll be very frank in in the development of the of the questions and working through it. I actually had some negativity around it. Will the needle leak actually move like what?

00:07:19
Like, they'll come and they'll hear it and it'll be like, but the way these two girls answered the questions and the way they put it, it was almost like daring people not to listen to them, you know? And I was like, yes, I'm so glad. I'm so glad that I did agree to do it. I'm so glad that I helped put this, put this together. And then the last little thing, Rachel, is I pulled the girls aside beforehand.

00:07:44
And then I talked to him afterwards and I said, I want you to know something said I'm not getting paid to be here for this event. And in fact I'm I'm not. I'm not even sure what this will really do. I don't know if the people in the room will move because of what you said. I hope they will.

00:08:00
I want to believe they will. But bare minimum, there's going to be pictures taken of you if you give consent and they both did and you'll put this on your resume. You're both in high school. You're both looking towards coming to something next, right? Whatever stand.

00:08:12
Maybe it's college, maybe it's a job. Maybe it's something different. But you, This is why I'm doing it. I'm doing it so you guys can put this on your resume as a stepping stone to it, 'cause that for sure is going to help, right? That for sure it can't be ignored if you're applying to a job or applying to college, that you are a keynote speaker on a student panel at the State Educational Technology District Association conference you know, or directors conference.

00:08:35
So, so and I told mom and dad like, and you probably told them the same thing and they won't listen to you, but maybe they'll listen to this strange guy that's up here on the stage with that means.

00:08:46
Totally, totally. That's amazing. I think it's also just a call to our listeners. You know, find students, find people who use AAC, find autistic adults or autistic students. I mean, I feel like the the call really here is to really amplify the voices of those we're trying to help and teach, right?

00:09:09
And so I think that's something that you can do even at a small level, right? And if you don't know where to go, we have so many podcast episodes with both autistic adults and AAC users. And so don't hesitate to get in contact and reach out and see if they could be the ones that are teaching your school district about AAC or, you know, assistive technology or whatever The thing is.

00:09:37
Any sort of conversation like that moves the needle in a positive direction. That was my take away from this. So if that's a coffee talk at your school, at your local school, if it's a conversation with 10 other parents, if it is a big organization like this, do it. I'm going to continue to say yes to this. And with that, Rachel, let me ask because I think the interview we have today is also somebody that said, hey, I think I can contribute to to I need to make something for my own daughter, but I think I can contribute to the bigger world, right?

00:10:11
Is that what our interview is today?

00:10:13
Yes, Chris actually a listener of our podcast and also a father of a AAC user reached out and we were like, come on the podcast. So Remy shares his experience, basically detailing all of his experiences and challenges, not being able to find an adequate AAC system in French. And it's so interesting to kind of hear a story of triumph honestly, of how he just, like didn't take no for an answer and started kind of developing his own ideas. And yeah, it was a really great podcast interview and I'm really excited to share it with our.

00:10:49
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00:11:17
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00:11:35
Welcome to Talking of a Tech. I'm your host, Rachel Mado, joined us always by Chris Bouguet. Hey, Chris.

00:11:39
Hi, Rachel.

00:11:40
I'm also here with Remy Moran. Remy, we're so excited to have you here today.

00:12:03
That's what it sounds like. We.

00:12:06
Love it. So what were we just listening to Remy?

00:12:09
So this is the AEC of my daughter and it's it's a translated version that I made because this, the system that I really wanted her to work with was not available in French so was a big a big adventure of nine months getting through 30 or so thousand buttons to modify. There's a, there's a lot of work in there and I'm really happy that we can, we can work with that really because I have the feeling sometimes that AC systems are not exactly, you know, adapted to people that don't read right. And you see that often you have, for example, buttons where you have many folders like verbs that start from A to F Yeah. But if you don't read, how can you figure it out? Right.

00:13:06
So I think that that system that I'm using is is more geared into, you know, very more symbol base, semantics base. And I think, I think it makes it way more accessible for my kid.

00:13:22
Well, let's bring it back, Remy. First, let me just say I love your philosophy already. It's certainly one I share for myself. I've tried to impose on my kids and the teachers that I work with that if you go out into the world and you're looking for a resource, and that resource doesn't exist, then it's on you to create that resource like you found the hole in the world that you need to fill. And it sounds like that's something you've done.

00:13:46
But Rachel and I have a little insight into what we're talking about. Let's bring everyone else into the world. Who are you and what do you do?

00:13:55
OK, so first of all, I'm not a speech language pathologist. I am working as a software design appointee in a consulting firm. So what I'm doing exactly is I'm working in the certification process of aerospace software. So something that is really not you know, oriented with what we're talking usually today, but it has something that is a lot of process in it, lots of audience verification stuff like that, very technical and very oriented throughout the computer science. So.

00:14:31
So this is what I'm doing in life. This is my first full time job. My other full time job is being the father of three kids, 3 autistic kids and one being completely non speaking and the other being partially speaking. But part time is a user too.

00:14:51
And are you in the Quebec area? We are noticing an accent, yes.

00:14:56
Yes, I do. I do have a little accent. So yeah, I'm. I'm in on the South Shore Of Montreal and yes, I'm I'm from Quebec. And actually this is something that is quite pertinent to my, my, my work because the French, I mean the the, the, the French community, the, the, it's really, you know, a very isolated area if I can say so, versus you know all the English that is going everywhere.

00:15:29
So I just have the feeling that for example for AEC that's a problem here because we are being that, you know, little population there sometimes forgot we, I mean fortunately we can still have links with, you know, other French speaking countries and France, Belgium and whatnot. But it feels that here we're in little, I don't know, a little vacuum of knowledge and it's very hard to come by. You know, having an SLP that is specialized in the AC, it's really difficult actually. I I personally I I know a few of them, but it's not a lot.

00:16:11
I mean, that sort of makes sense. There's not a lot in the United States. It's speaking English. So when you think about in this smaller region of Canada where it's French speaking and what are the numbers of people that understand AAC and can help parents navigate learning language through AAC?

00:16:34
Almost none. I mean I haven't really found much to be honest. I know there are some, I mean there are some initiatives in place. I can name for example, Floriano Olivier and Julie Paquette that that they, they did their presentation in a loud in French and they were talking about, you know, integration of EC in school and how to build the community around it. And I mean there's some movement happening now, but it's still very, very fragmentary.

00:17:08
There's not. That way you don't see a lot really.

00:17:12
You tell us your story and the story of your children and and what you needed to do to create something that we heard at the beginning. But let's start with your kids and your and your perspectives and your story around AAC.

00:17:25
Yeah, so, so my first kid, she's the one that is completely speaking, if I can say so. She got her diagnostic. I think she was 4 something like that. And when we got the and actually our two other sisters are twins and when we got the twins we saw their progression and at some point we realized oh OK. So even from you know the developmental standards that you build knowing you know what is neurotypical what is autism.

00:17:56
Then you realize that oh even from that perspective of the first kid the two others are having more difficulties developmentally and and at some point well we realized that well they they're not going to speak anytime soon. So we waited. We waited but at some point you well need to try to find solutions and when I started you know looking into services and everything, everything with specs, specs specs specs specs, specs. So give give the the pictogram you get it. We tried that.

00:18:30
It was, yeah, was not really working for us to be honest. Because The thing is my kids are really, they are really connected. They are tablet connected, right? They are. I mean I remember when we had this, this evaluation for the the learning potential before starting school, the the the lady asked, well can she do puzzles?

00:18:54
I can say no, but on the tablet she can. She can very much. If she have real puzzle pieces in front of her, she's just going to put them in her mouth and that's it. But if she has, you know, the the puzzle and the tablet, then oh, now can it cognitively everything connects and then she she does it. So I I've seen an affinity very, very early into technologies.

00:19:19
So when I discovered AEC, well, I was like, wow, this is exactly what she needs. But at the time when you start looking at the, you see you're thinking nouns, you're thinking words, you're thinking maybe verbs, but it's really, you know, isolated words. You don't realize that, oh, wait, at some point we'll need to have something that is, that will expand to something where she will be able to say whatever she wants. And this is, this is a realization that took some time. And I'm happy to see now that parents that goes, you know, on on Facebook groups, they realize that hey, they they can't have this right away.

00:19:57
It's a huge shortcut, right, to be able to say, hey, you need to go robust from the get go and not having this, oh, we will just put the words because at that time you don't realize that the words that you put in are your words. It's not her words, it's your it's yours. So but this was, I mean this was a process. I remember, you know, fidgeting with some applications. And at some point I I said well let's go, let's buy, let's buy one of these tools and let's, let's do it.

00:20:30
So we started with with protocol to go and we worked with that for a few months up to the point that I just wanted to discard it.

00:20:44
Can I? Can I ask a?

00:20:45
Question.

00:20:47
How did you decide pro low quota go and did you have any support from a school district or from a government agency or anything I.

00:20:56
I did the. I mean I was more evaluating it myself and I think you know looking back I think it was a little mistake because it was not to me was not really you know addressing some of the of the of the needs of my kids. So a thing that I didn't like about that one is that you have words sometimes you go up into your browsing and then you realize oh that word that was there is no longer there because it's it's replaced by another one. But I need that word now so I need to go back and it's it's always navigational, right. You're always going from that page to the other page and and I was a little discouraged by that to be honest up until I I I found an interview with Lance McLemore working on his accent device and I was like Oh my God we I will never.

00:21:54
I mean if if I train every day in my life I will never be as fast as him using protocol never. So from that point I just realized speed is is quite the issue. I mean you need even if it takes time you need to have something to produce words fast. It's important. It's a very it's a very important characteristic in my book.

00:22:18
Well, and Remy, I might add that by searching for words and the more complicated the navigation, the more cognitive load there is. So I have to hold what I want to find in my whole message in my head. Search through, and if I'm not reading, make some guesses at what the pictures might mean. And it's a very complicated cognitive process that again, you get better at if you have educators that are helping you, if you have support. But yeah, that it seems to my experience, seems to align with yours.

00:22:52
Rachel, what do you think?

00:22:54
Yeah, I mean, I think that it's, I've been listening to you, Remy, talk about your experience and I think unfortunately this notion that you, you needed to figure out how to support your children through AAC, you didn't exactly know what you were doing, but you were seeking out the information. I think that's an experience that's very common, unfortunately, a very common experience for parents. So this whole time I've been listening, I've been thinking like, how did you learn so much about AAC? Like, where did you go? Because I know that there's a lot of parents out there, perhaps, you know, listening where they're like, I don't have access to an SLP who can help guide this process.

00:23:37
Like, I don't know what to do. I think one, you know, figure out something, right? So it sounds like you were just kind of learning as you go. You knew this was really important and then you kind of shifted and changed things as you know, you started to learn more, you had more access. But I'm curious from your perspective, like what were those resources early on that were really helpful for you in learning kind of what you now know about AAC and best practices and how to kind of support complex communication needs through AAC?

00:24:09
Well, you guys first. I mean, that's right. No, but but seriously, that really helped because it's brought up in the format that is very, very useful. The podcast, right? I mean, you're in your car and I have to go somewhere 20 minutes.

00:24:25
Hey, I can, I can listen to half an episode of Talking with Tech. Very useful. You get a lot of information. You know, it's really is formatted and it's really in line with with what you need. You know that we will learn something, that's for sure.

00:24:39
In terms of Facebook, I think the groups in Facebook are really useful and I would like to name one in particular, which is ASK ME, I'm an AC user, which is to me, I mean I've learned a lot there, absolutely. I mean these people are extraordinary. They are sharing their time to help us understand and it's, I mean how can you have a better resource than that? So this one really it's really talked to me. There are other face Facebook groups in since you know in French we have a little more issues getting the the the tools and the diversity in terms of of of platforms.

00:25:21
We have also the group for communication EEC in French that is really useful too. But apart from that, I mean I'm I'm really self-taught to be honest. I like fidgeting with stuff so but at some point it's technology. I'll figure it out but it's technology. But I was, I mean I I, I'm, I was lacking in all the other aspects, right?

00:25:47
I mean where to put to put the buttons knowing that if you have two opposites, well it's better to not have them at the same place because then you would be some confusion. So you need to think about all these things. And when you are working with some other system, sometimes the placement of the buttons has deep significance and you need to think about it. So yeah, it's but but yeah, I mean all this information, it takes time to process and you need to read, read, read and you look at the pose and somebody has a question that you never thought about. But then you start looking at that and then you realize, oh I didn't see it from that perspective and then you realize a bunch of things.

00:26:32
So I mean we are very lucky to be able to live at this time where we can have huge communities in place where you can have somebody that is non speaking that can create posts and communicate with others with the Internet. I mean 10 years ago we didn't have that. It's it's crazy. I mean it's it's really something that that is helping a lot of people. So yes, we don't have necessarily the professional support always, but I think we are building a community that is pushing us in the right direction more and more.

00:27:08
I always think that that that today is the best day to be learning about AEC, to be needing to use AEC, to learning how to use AEC. Today is better than yesterday because there's more people talking about it, more, more resources and more opportunities to learn from each other. So I couldn't agree more. So let me go back. All right.

00:27:30
So you you experienced this interview. Was it the Talking with tech interview with Lance?

00:27:36
No, because it was it was video. So I think it was AC AC in the cloud at the.

00:27:40
Time and you see Lance in the talking with or talk in AAC in the cloud. You see Lance and AAC in the cloud and you're like, whoa.

00:27:47
OK, mind blown.

00:27:48
Super fast.

00:27:49
Mind blown? Yeah.

00:27:50
And that takes you on another journey. So what happens next?

00:27:56
So I'm the first thing I'm thinking about is, well, motor planning. I see that there's great benefit to it. I see that it can work. It can help you a lot processing all this stuff because I was, I was looking at him and it was very, very automatic, right. You know the the touches and everything.

00:28:17
So what system is this guy using? And then I realized that that that system was unfortunately not available in French. So I was a little bump but at some point there was that Bruce Baker globalization initiatives in place. So I started meeting some people in France that were interested into having the the system in French and we we started we made a candidacy and everything. But in the meantime, I just, you know, I just took the iPad and I just started editing and I just let's go, we, I don't know where it's going to get me start with fringe words.

00:28:59
It's going to be easy. But then after that, yeah, when you go to the core words there, this is where it gets tricky because there are some, some formulations in French that don't exist in English. Right. You have all this gender happening. You have all this relative pronouns and all this all these little pieces that we're not taught of in the system.

00:29:20
So you need to place them. You need to see OK well where where is going to make sense to put these words so that it can work and then while you you try to well wait a second. I mean are they the are they the right words the words that are there Because I I know you know in in in some language you have very specific words and and turns out that I want to mention that. By the way I'm very jealous of you guys because English is very simple and it's very versatile especially in terms of core words. For example, if we're talking about to return, well, you can say to come back, you have come, you have back, you have come back, you have it.

00:30:01
In French, we have a specific verb for it. It's called. So we we necessarily have this. We cannot have a combination of of core words. To do the word you need to have the actual verb or the actual noun.

00:30:13
So I mean these are just more hurdles into doing that translation. But it it makes you realize that Ace English is very, very, very suited to AC to me. I mean from another language perspective, I just feel that this this combination of words are very useful because now you you learn 2 words, I know you learned a third one because the two together have another significance, right. So, yeah, I mean, so, so I I went through that page by page and I got for example, there was that study in like in 18 something where they analyzed a bunch of books and they took, you know, the most used words. So then I was able to correlate, you know, the, the words that were in that list versus what I had in the ACS to have, you know, complete coverage for pronouns, for determiners, you know, all of the main these main pieces.

00:31:13
And then well, for word and verbs then you get just the top of the list. But at least you have a pretty good coverage of the words. Of course since it was done in 1800s, you don't have words like computer, that's for sure. But I mean the words that were already in the sense the system. I just I just translated them directly and and just to make sure that my coverage was complete.

00:31:34
Right. So this is very in a nutshell what I did. But there was some challenges specifically in terms of verbs. So for example, let's say you have the word, you have the the verb have. Well, you have have has having had.

00:31:53
That's pretty much it, right. In French, you can have up to like something like 50 different ways of saying the verb. So that means a lot of real estate into your AEC, right? So you need to think about all the the plays that it's going to take and you need to come up with consistent ways of presenting that too. So that was that was quite a challenge.

00:32:17
Fortunately there was already a Spanish version available for that system. So it always it also has the same challenges in terms of you know forms of verbs. So I was able to borrow that and just you know adapt it so but I think for efficiency reasons there are some tenses that I would drop eventually because they are more into telling a story than talking. So I think there's that, that's another thing. The French language you have, you have a level of language.

00:32:48
So when you're talking to someone, you don't speak exactly the same as you would write it into a story. So that's another thing that complicates a little what's happening in French. But yeah, so so yeah, this is pretty much, this is pretty much it.

00:33:04
Remy so while you're wrestling with the translate translation, what are you using at home? Because you're, I would imagine at some point you're like well Proloquo, but I kind of want this other system. And so how did you reconcile what to use at home and what were your experiences like, you know, implementing AEC at home?

00:33:24
We were not that advanced in terms of Proloquo so it wasn't too bad and I mean I was able to still be able to to show you know the the I I was able to do a one it on the on the tablet so that helped I mean with the one yet we already had I mean I knew the main page wouldn't change that much so I was able to use these one it to at least you know starting some notions like ghost up, up, down stuff like that. But I mean The thing is to my daughter that is completely non speaking she's she has very. I mean when you need to repeat a lot and a lot and a lot and a lot put it in very different context and and be very tenacious when you want to, when you teach a word which makes it a little complicated. But when she get she gets it, she gets it. But I just feel that up until very recently, her neurodevelopmental calendar was not, you know, on point to learn all this stuff.

00:34:39
I I have the feeling of that. And now now I feel that she's more responsive to it. I see a lot of good operational reflexes from her, for example. She wants something. She comes to us.

00:34:58
She realizes that we will want to discuss with her, with AEC and she will need your AEC. So she goes back and she takes a tablet and she brings it back. So you see, there's already that notion. OK, I need to speak. I need to get that thing and I'm going to go back and I'm going to show it.

00:35:15
Another thing is recently when she asked for something new, Well, my girlfriend, she doesn't know where all the words are. I do, but she doesn't. Well, that's what happens when you translate it completely, right? You you've I just engraved everything in my memory while doing it. And actually that's kind of a problem.

00:35:36
I'm jumping to something else. Sorry, let's let's put that aside. So another reflect that she had is when my girlfriend was searching for the word, she was pressing, you know, the magnifier button and then she was putting in the text and everything. So at some point she wanted to tell us something about a word, but she didn't know what word it was. So she went into the magnifier.

00:35:57
She went into the word search. She didn't know what to write. She write, you know, bongs or what, whatever. She didn't write, but that wasn't what. What's important there, the thing that was important there is that she realized that it's a word that we never seen.

00:36:12
So the way to get it will be through that search. So it's all little things, I suggest, little tendrils that are getting out. And so I mean eventually she's and and and also she's very precise in her movement. She when she knows she wants that icon, she's going to get it. It's very, very be.

00:36:31
It will be very precise. So I see a lot of good things coming up. But yeah learning words is difficult. It's takes time repetition of context. And yeah we need to work on this a lot because we will.

00:36:47
I I just have the feeling that we will have to show her all the words or the other maybe. I guess at some point it it just unlocks, but right now I don't see it.

00:36:59
Let me ask you this something I've heard over the years from different speech therapists, when they've come across someone who speaks a second language and they can't find an AC system in that language or it's not necessarily robust, they'll they'll maybe go, well, maybe they don't really need to learn it, they'll just learn English, which to me sounds problematic. But what are your what's your take on that? Like, did you ever think, well, I guess you're just going to learn English because, like, we don't have it in French because that seems like what we need to You're French, right? Like, right. What's your thoughts on that?

00:37:39
Honestly, I don't think it would have been a problem to just go in English. It's just that, I mean it is just a question of integration. I mean you are living somewhere where everybody speaks the language. Well, I think the first step for integration is to is to actually speak that language or try to do it right. So the thing I wanted to do at the same time was not only to build the French system and transition of a system, but also you know, I think a system that can work with both language, right.

00:38:14
So right now there's that button in the corner that says English, French and she can switch it up if she wants. And because all of the motor planning is there and because of all the thing are being translated, it's actually funny because sometimes she talks to us in English but she doesn't know because it's in the other menu. But we just we just go with it and it's OK. I mean, we just, we just go along with it. And it's great because you see that she learned the concept semantically.

00:38:46
Now she knows where it is, and no matter the language, she'll be able to express it.

00:38:51
I'm happy you brought up Remy Bilingualism because I was going to ask like, are you? You know, it sounds like you have dual languages happening in your your home, English and French.

00:39:02
Mostly French, but I mean, I want to have English too. Because you know, the end result of all of this is to be able to communicate no matter what language you're using. And also, I mean the Internet is all in English, right? All texts that is there is, is in English. And yes, we are already talking literacy.

00:39:24
We are already, you know, seeing that very far goal of, you know, reading and writing because even in the AECI mean there are some words that aren't there. I mean it's impossible to have all the words in your AEC. You have the words that are, you know, accessible to you and and you can also that. I think that's another goal, right, Being able to modify your own AECII think that screams autonomy, right there, right? If Sean, if someday she wants to go there and say, well, this word, I don't want it.

00:39:56
I don't want it in that page. I want it on the other page, so be it. I think that that's very important, because this is, to to me, is the ultimate goal of AC. If you can modify your system to be able to say whatever you want, the way you want, it's a win. And for literacy, it's reading and writing and reading and writing on the Internet is in English.

00:40:17
So English is an undeniable fact. But I didn't want that to be the only reason why she would only have it in English. I wanted to. I mean, the language you speak here is French. She heard almost eight of her years here in French.

00:40:34
I mean would be weird a little just to. OK, let's switch back to English. And also, it brings up also another isolation, the in the family, right, Because everybody's talking to each other in French and then all of a sudden, oh, you have to talk to her. You have to talk in English. Yeah, it's a, it's a discriminator.

00:40:51
So you don't want to do that. So that's why also I wanted to to have it in French because it's fit, you know, the environment, I mean it, all of this, all of this thing is, I mean we understand her, that's not a problem. I mean we understand her to to a certain point. This point being I'm going to bring you by the arm and you're going to figure it out. But I mean it's important for her to be adapted to the outside world.

00:41:20
I mean that's why we are not doing well we we are doing science a little, but I mean science is not that accessible to the rest of the people. A machine that is talking to you and seeing clearly what's happening. Well that that's that's very adapted that that is very great to to to be able to reach out to the to the other people.

00:41:42
Yeah, when I'm hearing you say Remy, is this idea of universally understood? And so, especially if you're in a environment where everyone is speaking French, like English is not universally understood. And so really making sure you are teaching language and teaching it on a system that helps her connect to everyone around her, I think is sounds like it was the top priority.

00:42:09
Yeah, it's it's difficult decisions though. I mean, you know, when I, when I started doing that translation, I knew I would be there for a long time. You know, I I knew it was it would be long. But I mean at some point if I don't do it, who's going to do it, right Because up to that point there was nobody who had done it. So OK, I'll do it.

00:42:29
It's OK. I'll think, I mean in the end I'm very happy that I was able to do that. And I mean, I think it's a very good tool and it was going to help her a lot and I think she's going to get language more because of of of that, that's for sure.

00:42:48
Remy, I think we've skirted around it. I don't know that we've actually said it yet. Unless I missed it for some reason. Is that I?

00:42:54
Try not to see.

00:42:56
It it is. Lance uses lamp words for life, right? And so that's the system that you've been translating into into French, right. And you said something that maybe a lot of people don't recognize is that the where the words are located is very intentional, right? Something you said earlier in the interview is like, well, words that are semantically close, like me, they have close and similar meanings are intentionally put far away from each other so that someone recognizes.

00:43:27
And a lot of people, if they were building their own system, might not. Why isn't in next to out? I don't understand like rising up and down next to each other. That's a confusing thing for a lot of people done with intentionality and lamp words for life. So real quick, tell us what where is this going?

00:43:45
Because I'm betching, people are listening, going like I know someone who speaks French and they might need this. Like, what's the outcome of your work?

00:43:52
OK. So I wasn't talk with PRCA Little earlier this year and I'm very happy to announce that we will have this this vocabulary available to everybody at least in Canada in November. I don't know what's the plan but I I know there's going to be a roll out to other countries but there are some licensing issues happening from what I I could gather. So yes, in the end we will be able to to share to share this to everybody and I'm really happy about that. I mean I'm happy that other parents won't have to go through what I went to, but I mean at the same time I mean I need to, I need to acknowledge the, the genius of Bruce Baker.

00:44:40
I mean when I was doing, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm very researchy because it's part of my job, right? And I stumble on that video that he did about men speak was like in 1992, like more than 30 years ago when the guy was already talking about word prediction, was talking about, you know how we come up with that system? How do we come up with the semantic compaction? I was like, I was mind blown when I saw that. I mean the guy was a pure genius and and really, I mean I we wouldn't have this system if it wasn't for him.

00:45:18
And wow, wow. I was really, really a lot of admiration for that person. I'm I'm just, I I'm, I would have liked to meet him, but unfortunately it won't happen. But yeah, really that that really help also help, you know, understand the inner workings of that beast, because there's a lot of thought in that system. There is a lot really, and I really acknowledge that.

00:45:49
I'm curious, Remy, how long this took you.

00:45:54
So I was working nights I I had my little stool with my key Bluetooth keyboard in front of the iPad because I did it on on the application directly. It took me 9 months to do so every night and then working on those, but it's I can tell you it took like two months doing almost everything and like seven months doing the verbs because the verbs were it was brutal. There was a lot of pages a lot of words. I mean almost 50 buttons per verb. You know how much verbs there in LAMP?

00:46:34
Just think about just think about the fast page where there's like 24 verbs that was giving me nightmares.

00:46:42
I part of the reason I wanted to ask that Remy is because I mean, one, I think people are just genuinely curious like how long did this whole process take. But I think what we're talking about is you know you referenced Bruce Baker, you've referenced how much thought and intention goes into these systems. And I really want to highlight that because one of the things I see in my clinical practice is people taking systems that have so many years and intention and thought behind them and completely changing them for the immediate needs of an AAC user. And you know, I just want to point that out that like these systems are set up with purpose and reason and so much intention. And so don't just take a system and totally change it to something else because it was set up very strategically and intentionally.

00:47:38
I I like the fact that the parents, they go on the lamp group and they ask where should I put this word because the the ones that get it, they can provide pretty good suggestions. I was struggling with that for a while actually, you know, putting words in there, more words at first because I wanted to have a pure translation but then then when I was done I was ready to put in more words. I realised that my kid is she's just not necessarily use. I mean it's on her terms right? So sometimes we I feel that she needs something else.

00:48:24
So for example the oldest she she has this, this this habit of using her tablet and photograph everything that she eats or or drinks. I don't know why, I don't know why she why she come. She came to that but at some point the non speaking one, she came in, she took her tablet, just start scrolling. This is what I want. This is what you know she didn't say that but I mean she sort of showed that to us and then we realized that OK so so there's some merit to have, you know some systems where you have some more pictorial, you know, material.

00:49:04
So this is when I started to realize that, OK, we need more than one AEC application that does it. All right. So we started using Gotalk now. And in Gotalk now we started having these, you know, like 16 pictures per page for stuff that she wants to eat or places that where she wants to go and she just switches from one to the other and that's it. I mean it's it's like natural for her.

00:49:33
So I mean, but we need to think about that because it was. I mean, we could have shown her all these words in the system, but her immediate need would not be satisfied. And because you have this other system on the side, which nothing wrong with that, by the way. Because of that she's able to to communicate what she wants in a more effective way. That to me is really important because I mean the the, the end objective of all this is for her to be able to communicate.

00:50:05
Will that be a perfect sentence? Grammatically correct? Well, in French, I mean how can you even do that? But. But right.

00:50:13
I mean it's it's all about communicating. It's all about, you know, transmitting that idea or that request and and that's it. So yeah, why not. So that's what I I I'm using on the side and you know now I'm I'm thinking about maybe having a change of platform at some point or to repurpose the the thing I don't like right now with most of the EC applications that they are limited in terms of platforms. I don't I don't like that.

00:50:44
I think, I think my ideal AEC would be web-based. It would be accessible to everybody and it would be accessible to all the devices that we are we are having at home, including phone, which to me is the most portable AEC that you can have. I mean I I feel that this is important. This is somewhere I will be probably working a little more for the next. I don't know how much time it's going to take.

00:51:12
I'm. I'm patient.

00:51:14
We know you're a hard worker, Remy Oh.

00:51:16
Yeah, yeah. That's it.

00:51:17
Remy, I want to summarize 2 things that you just said there. One, let's start with the open AAC movement, because you're not the first parent or really educators in a in a broad sense saying that's what we need. We need something that can fit on multiple devices, sort of like cough drop can fit on multiple devices but in an open source sort of way. So you could take your lamp system and put it on a Toby Dinovox device for.

00:51:45
Instance I would like. I would like that. But I understand that as we mentioned earlier, all this stuff is IEP and that's a problem. And at some point I'm sorry to say that. But at some point we will have to, to have the debate of what is IP versus essential needs like communication.

00:52:06
And I know it's not going to be, it's going to be, it's not going to be a nice debate, but at some point I think we will have to have this debate.

00:52:16
I just wanted to clarify, when you're saying IP Remy, for people who don't know, are you referencing intellectual property?

00:52:21
Yes, yes, I am. Yes.

00:52:23
Just making sure.

00:52:25
The second thing that you mentioned that I think is something I've definitely learned over the last 10 years. It was not something that I have I was taught or know, but it's something for I've learned from experience by talking to AAC users is that people use multiple applications. And depending on the situation, sometimes you roll into this application and sometimes you roll into this application and it takes a skilled educator to help you figure out what tool to use in the right given moment. And that even something we've wrestled with on this podcast is the term system. I'm making air quotes here.

00:53:01
Is is lamp words for life. A system is pro low quota go a system or is it? I'm using the Gotalk now app and sometimes I'm using the pro loquo and sometimes I'm using a lamp words for life and sometimes I'm using sticky notes and a pen and that's my system, you know? It's all the stuff it makes up with what is what. All the stuff I use is my system.

00:53:26
What are your thoughts?

00:53:27
Oh yeah, I mean definitely you you need to see it as the sum of the different means of communication that you are using. This is your AC system. Yeah. And in terms of platform, I think we need to, I mean I see the importance of being able to have this all in one device. I think it's very important because I mean, I don't see somebody, you know, going with 3-4 iPads or something like that, you know, the Samsung tablets, phone, whatnot and and just, you know, juggling from one to the other.

00:54:06
No, I prefer, you know, having on all this in one iPad, by the way. I was, let's talk about that. Yeah, I was using Guided Access for a long time because I didn't want my kid, you know, to go out and just go in the, you know, play and everything. And for last Christmas what we did is we we gave her an iPad with the communications and everything, but you know, no Guided Access game, you know, stuff like that. And a few weeks ago we were going out and she had their tablet and I came in with my tablet to do the modelling right.

00:54:44
And I was about tell or something and I saw her, she drop off YouTube and she went into the communication application. So you see there's the intention you see. So I mean what I would like to say is don't be afraid to remove the guided access. I know, I know, it's not. You want to have control and you want, but at some point, you know, even YouTube videos can be used for communication.

00:55:11
I remember she showed me a video of one kind of candy that she wanted and you can use that. So if you block this access, you block part of the system.

00:55:20
Remy, I get. I think Rachel and I are both really smiling here because this is something we say all the time. What's the least dangerous assumption is that I could teach somebody why this is an important app. It's not called guided restriction, it's called Guided Access, right. So the the people at Apple are also very intelligent and have a design behind why they call things certain things.

00:55:44
And so it makes sense to me that you would start with not having Guided access on and turn it on if you needed it turned on as opposed to. All right, here's your new tool. Let me lock it down.

00:55:56
So sorry, sorry, go ahead.

00:55:59
No, go ahead.

00:56:00
OK. Well, I just wanted to say that I still have guided access on the tablets that I use. So I have tablets at home that are completely dedicated to that application but at first I was using Guided Access but when I started to realise oh she she wants to use the other applications, you you know we started putting the the, the work into into go that now I cannot use Guided Access anymore right. We need to have access to these apps. So be it.

00:56:29
We just removed it from from all the tablets and now we we're living with that and and and it's and it's fine, it's fine.

00:56:37
I wanted you kind of. I was so excited when you started talking about guided access because I was literally going to point that out and talk about that. So I'm happy that you shared that, Remy. I also want to point out what I love about what you're saying is that you're really honoring every way that your daughter decides to communicate. I think so often we get so laser focus, especially speech language pathologists on language and there's one system that we're really modeling and we really want, you know, her to use.

00:57:08
And when we open up and we really allow all the different modalities of communication and honor it and build off of it, you know, I think that we're really allowing her to. We're really best supporting your daughter in her ability to communicate in whatever way is easiest for her and most comfortable and most reliable in those moments. And so I love this idea of just opening up to all the different ways that she's communicating and respecting and honoring that. Because so often we hear like, oh, like, you know, tell me on your talker. Or, you know, we're giving all of like our own input as to the way we expect and want children to communicate with us, instead of being curious and observing all the ways that children are communicating with us already.

00:57:58
Yeah, and and really the thing that's a little strange is that you will have people say, oh wait a second, you need to put all the words. You cannot limit the words because you know this person won't be able to say, but at the same time they put Guided access right.

00:58:15
Exactly.

00:58:17
It's a it's a little strange because when you realize that you know anything can be communication, well, you should leave the door open. That's it. I guess that that that's how it's summarizes too.

00:58:29
Remy, what kind of final thoughts do you have advice you'd give to parents who are hearing this? You're one of the few fathers we've had on the podcast over the years. That's certainly been a goal of ours. So what advice would you give to other parents out there who are getting started?

00:58:48
Well, let's start with fathers. Guys get implicated. Come on. I'll just say that I just see that too much often, you know, even even the groups, you know, the groups on Facebook, they are starting to have this oh, hi, moms, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's it's kind of silly, right?

00:59:06
I mean, anybody can help this kid reach out. Communication. Come on it's it's a basic need and as parents we need to we need to help for that and and I I I have a hard time understanding wonder why there is not more fathers especially given that you know technologically speaking I I think there are more guys that are techies and and and that can help right. I mean it's it's yeah. Anyways I think my message for all parents is hang on because there's a lot of work coming up and you will have to to learn a lot.

00:59:49
Your kids going to learn a lot and when you will be using your tablet then you're going to think it's hard. Well think about them because it's it's way harder for them and you know as resources. You need to you need to build up your network, you need to to look at groups, you need to look at everything that's available to you. I mean again when when we talking about something open for the kids for communication. Well we you need to keep our option open as parents to get the information and we will find some gems in there.

01:00:22
I remember my oldest she, I always had the the impression that she was talking using a cassette tape and using portions of it. You know like and when I discover Gestalt language processing, I was like that's it. That's what it was. And then I so you know you need to to look and and be aware and and learn as much as you can because it's it for sure it's going to be useful in down the down the road that that's for sure.

01:00:58
I I think Remy, you sharing about how much work it is. I think that that's something that, you know, I'm communicating and do a lot of work with parents and do a lot of parent coaching and a lot of training on teams and things like that. And it is this extra layer right, of work and effort. But I love that you framed that thinking through the lens of the child, right? Because as hard as we feel like it is, we have literacy skills.

01:01:27
So we're able to read all of those, you know, symbols that have the label underneath them and you know, we have acquired the language so we're able to then model it. It's just like, imagine going through your world, not having access to the language and communication yet, to fully be able to communicate your experience and connect with the people around you. And so I love that reframe because as hard as it is for us, it's way harder for the children that are in front of us.

01:01:55
Yeah. Plus we have a little more dimension now because we are homeschooling our non speaking and yeah that brings up a lot more challenges especially in terms of literacy. And also you know we have systems in French are limited in terms of EC but we also have limited learning resources to. I mean they are they are not saying that they're not but there's less than in English and then sometimes you see what's being done in English and you're like yeah I should translate that. An example of that is I think, I think you had Doctor Laura Clark a few weeks ago about the the slides, you know, for each letter.

01:02:39
I translated that.

01:02:41
Amazing. Maybe we should connect you to Laura and have the French ones available to her on her website. I feel like she'd love that.

01:02:48
Because I mean it was, it was useful and it was also a great opportunity to, you know, have some fringe word from this. I mean, I I did it, you know, in some words they were not available in the system, so I just dropped them. But I tried to find the words that were most fitting with the sea to be, you know, able to model it at the same time, you know. So then you get two birds and one stone. You just you just show a new new few words and at the same time you're showing the letters.

01:03:16
I love it.

01:03:19
Any final thoughts?

01:03:22
Any final thoughts really it's been very very very great doing that interview. I I could have shared more, you know I have so much going on. It's it's a little crazy but I think we need to to make the effort and I know, I I know there are some people that are more privileged than others. I I consider myself being very privileged. I'm able to work from home, have more time with the family.

01:03:55
We don't. I mean my my girlfriend, she doesn't work. So we we we have a lot of time to do that and I understand that some people don't know how much time. But I think every minute is worth it. Every minute that you're working on, this is worth it.

01:04:08
It's A and and yes, sometimes it's hard to see the end goal and sometimes it's it's a little new. You feel that you don't just don't advance, but you are you are you. You'll get there. It's just a matter of time.

01:04:22
I love it, Rami, Where can people contact you if they're like, oh, like I want to, I want to learn more. I want to connect.

01:04:29
I think Facebook is a is a good way to communicate with me. I'm lurking into these these groups. I'm asking questions myself. I mean, I'm not perfect and I'm not. I know that.

01:04:40
I don't know a lot of stuff about this and I think you all together we can we can understand more and we can do more and more and more and more interested personally into to literacy. So that's a whole other thing right? I have, I have these posts waiting for me to read. I know I'm going to get to them someday and but yeah, let's go day by day. Let's try to to to advance and continue that great journey.

01:05:12
Awesome. Well Remy, thank you so much for joining us today on the Talking With Tech podcast. We cannot wait for the French version of the Lampard's for Life to come out and for to for everyone to benefit from it. Thank you for your work on it.

01:05:24
Thank you.

01:05:25
So for talking with Tech, I'm Rachel Madel, joined by Chris Bouguet and Remy Moran. Thank you guys so much for listening. We'll talk to you next week.