Episode 283: Judith Schoonover (Part 2): The Role of OTs in AAC Assessment
This week, we present part 2 of Chris’s interview with Judith Schoonover, an occupational therapist who, along with Chris, was a founding member of the Louden County School District AT Team. This week, Judith talks about the role of the occupational therapist (OT) in the AAC device selection process, the importance of collaboration between team members during that process, and more!
Before the interview, Chris shares about doing an AAC training for bus drivers in his school district, and how the word “salad” created an “aha” moment for the group! Chris also discusses doing teacher trainings during the extended school year, including some teachers who thought they knew AAC better than they actually did.
Key ideas this week:
🔑 OT’s can be helpful with the assessment process by helping figure out things like motor access, as well as the ability of the student to directly select icons comfortably and successfully.
🔑 Some OTs want to jump directly from “this student has difficulty with direct selection of icons on an AAC device” to “this student needs an eye gaze device” without taking the time to understand what is causing the problems with direct selection.
🔑 Standardized testing doesn’t give the whole picture for OTs or SLPs. There are uses for standardized testing, but it is more important that we presume potential and take the time to better understand a student’s strengths and weaknesses.
Links:
WATI Assistive Technology Consideration to Assessment - https://www.wati.org/free-publications/assistive-technology-consideration-to-assessment/
Communication Bill of Rights - https://www.asha.org/njc/communication-bill-of-rights/
Transcript of the Episode
Please Note: This transcript was generated using speech recognition & AI tools; it may contain some grammatical and/or spelling errors.
00:00:08
Welcome to Talking With Tech. I'm your host, Rachel Madel, joined as always, by Chris Bugaj. Hey, Chris.
00:00:12
How's it going, Rachel?
00:00:13
Good. OK, last episode, I talked all about what I did over the summer break, which was not take a break at all. What did you do this summer?
00:00:23
I also take very little time off over the summer, spend a lot of time going different places and doing different things, too much probably to fit all into one banter. We have our notes to the side here of what we'll talk about. So I'm going to pick one thing to start with and then we'll go from there okay. One of the first things I got to do this summer, which is a really exciting opportunity, was. In my local school district, I got to do a training for bus drivers on a AAC, which is not a population of people we get to work with all that often. I think it happens at individual schools sometimes about teaching them about visual supports. We've certainly done that over the years in our neck of the woods, and I bet other people have had experiences like that in their own neck of the woods where we've got this one kid. So we do this one training with this one bus driver. That's certainly how it happened in my area is that there was this one kid that that they were had had a very unique needs and they wanted me to teach the bus driver and the bus attendant about how to use a AAC And I was like well, what I'm going to show is actually kind of universal. So you got other people that might want to participate and they're like. Yeah, actually this is kind of a need that we have universally and we've we have more a AAC users than we've ever had before and that many of them take the bus. So let's see how many people we can get together. And so that we we cobbled together all these different bus drivers and I got to come and spend, I don't know, maybe 90 minutes giving them a big overview and one big, huge take away and aha moment that they had was around the word salad. OK, so how how do we make this connection? Well, there's a particular kid that one of his favorite things to say, and one of the things he uses, the word the word he uses on his a AAC device all the time is salad. So you could imagine how if you're on a bus and this kid brings out his a AAC device and he says salad, salad, salad. What do you think the bus driver or the bus attendant might think the kid is trying to say?
00:02:32
That he wants a salad?
00:02:33
That he wants a salad, right. And that is certainly an intuitive answer. And that's what most people probably think. And they would say to him, we don't have a salad. We're on a bus. You know, I don't have a salad for you. Do you have something in your in your lunch bag? And they'll, they'll try and interpret the word salad as as a request for eating a salad. But then the aha moment they had while we were discussing, and it was I was I was like. How much how many opportunities has this kid had? Had to learn the word green? Or what if this kid receptively knows the word crunchy and wants something crunchy? But there's no he's never been taught that on his communication device or what if salads are usually cold, right? It's salad. You know, you taste it or you feel it's usually served cold, right? And So what if he just wants the sensation of something cold? And that's not been a word that he really has had the opportunity to learn yet expressively on his device? What if you were that kid and the only word you really knew successfully was salad, but salad really meant? Crunchy. It meant cold, it meant something green, it meant something that I put in my mouth. What if you were just sort of globalizing the word salad to have all these sorts of meanings? Because we didn't have. He hasn't yet had the opportunity. To learn the word crunchy or cold or whatever, whatever is resonating with him and whatever sensory need he's having, whatever thought he's is going through his mind. This was a huge, aha moment. Like I I saw the people's eyes light up around the room, this people leaning back in their chairs with surprise. Like, yeah, of course, right. Like, of course, we're interpreting this word salad as a request. And he might be trying to request something, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he's requesting a salad. He might be requesting something that is adjacent to a salad that has a similar meaning to a salad, but he doesn't know those words. And that's kicked, kicked off an entire conversation with them about well, OK, what would we do? And it's like well.
00:04:49
You maybe wouldn't just end with salad, but you could be asking some other questions. I don't have a salad, but do you want something cold? Cold. And then of course, we talked about modeling on the device. Do you want something crunchy, like, and it makes this sound, you know, like make and have a fun experience around it. And so again, really big moments with bus drivers about how to really respect. The the communication partner really understand that it's probably not just the word doesn't equal one thing, but it might or equal many things. And so it was really just a great experience.
00:05:29
I love this story, Chris, for so many reasons. One, it's just like the idea of training bus drivers. Like really just makes me smile. Like, yes, like all you know, people need to understand a AAC and how to support complex communicators. And I I love that you did this training. I also think. That the this is so common, right? Our students have such limited language. And then when they do use that language, maybe over and over again, we just assume that they're, you know, oh, they're just perseverating or they're just stimming or they're just whatever, fill in the blank, right, of some type of limiting belief about the fact that, you know, they're not. They couldn't possibly be using that language for for other purposes. And it's just like so important of a reminder that we need to really follow a student's lead. And so I, I, I give the example because one of my students was saying George Washington or no sorry it was Abraham Lincoln. He is so every he's he keeps talking about Abraham Lincoln and everyone's like, what? Like we don't get it. Like he just keeps saying Abraham Lincoln. I'm like, so like my therapist is like what do I do? I'm like teach the kid about Abraham Lincoln, like pull up Abraham Lincoln on like, you know, Google and like and then everything adjacent to Abraham Lincoln and he loved it. And so I think it's just an important reminder that follow like that was a thread that we started pulling at and we realized a huge learning opportunity there. And so salad is a thread that we could just pull at. And there's a huge learning opportunity there, right. Like we just build off of where a child takes us with their, you know, spontaneous communication and keep building language around that. And so I just think that that unfortunately it's not done all the time. It's just kind of like, oh, like we don't have salad right now. Next, right? Instead of building off of that and, you know, attributing meaning and then using that as a learning opportunity to teach other language.
00:07:43
Right. We could be writing stories about Salad and talking about all the words that are adjacent to Salad. And then we can be reading stories about salads and and yes, just following the students lead, using that as an opportunity to teach them concepts. It just makes a lot of sense. And these bus drivers got it, you know, That was the big, you know. They were totally invested in learning how to do this and learning how to use communication devices I had. I had the opportunity to bring iPads and pass them out and let them push the buttons and try some things. And again, this is the first time. Some of them had seen them, but no one had really spent, or if they had, they were in very limited capacity teaching them anything about a AAC. So they were very appreciative. And that's been my experience with anyone learning about a AAC is that, you know, it's people are hungry for the information they want to learn the information they want. They they feel like something is missing about their own practices and that when you fill in these gaps for them, they just get super excited, you know? So that was a fun experience over the summer when I was really excited to do one that I left feeling really good about. You know, like I feel like you know, did some good work over the summer, you know? And then the other thing that happened over the summer was the team that I work with and myself provide extended school year services, you know, really support services to the people that are providing extended school year services. And think something that's happening, I think all over the country and maybe in other parts is that there's a teacher shortages, right? And over the summer it's even worse, right? So there's a lot of people that they do hire that maybe have not had any sort of experience with the AAC. So there was a lot of come in do a lot of introductory teaching. And then the other flip side of that is because a AAC has been around for a while now, like robust a AAC, there's more people than ever that have experiences with kids who use iPads or hightech a AAC. And so the flip side of this introductory training is coming to meet people who've been like, Oh yeah, I've had this in my class for like. Seven years now. I know what I'm doing and then I start probing. Well, okay, let's Has anyone actually done some sort of something specific with you or taught you anything? And they're like, have anyone showed you how this app is designed, for instance? No. And suddenly it's like, okay, just because you've had it in your room doesn't mean you actually know. And lots of times the people that are meant to teach you. Have done some introductory training, but there's been staff turnover. Again, that's a bit that's an issue and and every school district is turnover. So there was an opportunity to teach people who are new and then really, really teach people who have had it for a while had exposure to it but hadn't had anything sort of structured or formalized. So there was again a lot of opportunities for a lot of good learning over the summer and I was, I was there for it and so were that my teammates that I get to work with.
00:10:55
I love it. It's so great and yeah, I totally can resonate. I just did a training last week with a preschool classroom. Teachers have never ever seen a AAC and my client is now in their preschool class and so they were open to a training and learning about it and there was definitely some like aha moments and light bulb moments and and so it is really exciting when we get a chance to introduce a AAC for the first time to a group and kind of share a different a different way that individuals can communicate.
00:11:27
Now, I've had some other experiences over the summer that I think are going to have to wait until the next banter or some future banter. For instance, I'll foreshadow them here now to keep people on bated breath. But I had an opportunity to go to Alabama and participate in experience there that I'll talk all about by a group called United Ability and got to. Do some really interesting and different stuff at that conference. So at that experience. So I'll tell you all about that in the future. And then a year ago me and the Inclusive Learning 365 team did this whole road trip down to ISTI well, which was in New Orleans last year. There was all sorts of stuff in our Patreon about it and we've talked about it on the podcast. But this year it was up in this little burg. I don't know if you've heard about it. It's Philadelphia. It's on the it's a city on the eastern side of Pennsylvania.
00:12:25
You know, we probably don't know it, but oh, Philly. Interesting. Never heard of it.
00:12:30
But that's where the ISTI conference was this year and we got to go and there were certain. I made a whole top five list of things that I learned at ISTI. I can't wait to share with you on the podcast, so we'll come back and do that in a future time, because now is the time to listen to part two of my interview with my longtime friend and colleague Judie Schoonover. If you enjoy talking with tech, we could use your help in spreading the word about the podcast. Please take a moment to leave us a review on iTunes. The more positive reviews the podcast gets, the easier it becomes for others to find it. The more people who find the podcast, the more the word spreads about how to effectively consider and implement a AAC. And who doesn't want that? If that sounds good to you, please take a moment and give the podcast a quick review. We'd so very much appreciate it. Now let's get back into the episode.
00:13:35
Okay. So what's next, Chris? What do we What do you want to? Know Okay Well, I'm just the Oracle today, right?
00:13:42
Okay. So on this podcast we've been doing it for over five years and now I guess I keep saying that I guess we might even be closing in the six years at this point. And something this podcast is all about is a AAC, right? And so let's talk about the occupational therapy role when it comes to a T in general, but then more specifically a AAC.
00:14:06
How do you see those things sort of working with occupational therapy, it's it's imperative. I don't see how one discipline could do it on their own. I believe strongly in interdisciplinary practice and you're missing something if you don't have all the players at the table with with a AAC and OT. It's a natural fit because, and I know a lot of SLP's are wonderful at doing this, but if they're not, if they need a little bit more help, it's that problem solving number one, with the position of the of the device and the access point of doing the task analysis. How does this child move? How? What's their energy level? What's their comfort level? Are they over stimulated? Are they under stimulated? All those kinds of things can help make a good a good talking point with part of the decision making. By by considering all those different standpoints. I could never ever ever tell you how a child would or what the best approach to start with communication would be other than the fact that they need to be able to to contact whatever is selected. And that's something that I think otees have a very strong role in. They also have a strong role in. And again the task analysis, I remember going into a classroom and watching this child, they were saying, you know this child doesn't doesn't use but but one row and they seemed to say the same thing over and over again. And I looked at at the child and I looked at where they were sitting and I looked at the device and I realized that the glare from the overhead lightings kind of obliterated obliterated most of the the viewing on the screen. But they were so used to putting the device in a certain location and the kids sat in a certain location that this was overlooked. And just by angling that device all of a sudden, number one, that the child could reach the far end of the device. They'd had it pushed back from the edge of the table so it wouldn't fall and break and all that kind of stuff. But the child couldn't reach comfortably and they couldn't see well. And those were just two simple things that could be fixed. Also considering the the fatigue ability and whether the child needs to be positioned differently. If if they're going to be using the voice output device and and whether whether the the force required for them to activate it is more than they can handle. Or when they're not handling it or not communicating, is it because they don't want to or they're shot for the day. And so those are things that not that the OT can fix it by themselves, but it's part of that problem solving that everybody can contribute to. When when Joy Zabala talks about the the set framework and we we talk about the student and the environments and the tasks that they need to do. We need input from everybody. And so if if the if the student needs to communicate, we need input from everybody about how they look. What their strengths and their their challenges are. What they're required to do and what it looks like in those different environments. And then we can we can we can do a better job of of coming to some conclusions on what is needed, when it's needed and and who is the best person to to maybe lead the charge.
00:17:37
My advice to OT's especially the ones that are new because we're still not doing interprofessional collaboration at the preservice level. As much as we could be doing. I I would strongly recommend if I were in charge of all the universities that these classes be done as as classes together with special educators, SLP's, OT's, physical therapists, and engineers. Because we need to communicate what's needed to engineers and engineers know need to know what kinds of questions to ask so that that when products are being developed we know what to do, everybody knows what to do. I think OT's need to learn what as much as they can about a AAC if they haven't learned it all before. I think the best way of doing that is to partner, and that was one of the things that I enjoyed doing so much. I always collaborated as an OTI collaborated with the teacher, the speech pathologist, and the guidance counselor. They were my favorites and but also the PT's and also never leave home without it. It's that's that slogan. I can't even remember what what product that represents. But too many times I've seen someone who is more focused on what they need to accomplish during that time that they have with the child that maybe the AAC device gets left behind because they're going to be working on A, B or C And I'm not going to name a discipline because I think it happens across the board. But AAC is part of a child's life. It's part of their personhood. And so they need to have it at all times and it needs to be there. But there we have maybe someone who's less familiar with the device. So it behooves anybody, whether it's the teacher, whether it's the related service provider to become more familiar with the device that the child or the the the methodology that the child is using to communicate and be familiar with how they access it and to understand a little bit more about how the device itself works. Not not where it's positioned, for example, or whether it's tilted, but exactly what it's expected of the device. It's not just something where they touch something and they talk. It's it's way more than that and understanding the the. The continuum of what's available can help people make better decisions, regardless of what discipline. I know that sometimes the the quick decision when a child can't necessarily press the the surface of a voice output device is to jump right to eye gaze and Yikes, you can. You can really cause a lot more problems with jumping right to eye gaze rather than breaking down exactly what's going to happen and that takes a team and OT's have so much to contribute to that problem solving. I think it's interesting and and I I put this note when I knew that you were going to ask me certain questions. I happen to be one of the members of the National Joint Committee for the Communication Needs of Persons with Severe Disability, also known as the NJC. It was established in the 1980s, and they had represented representatives from Asha, AOTAAPTA Council on Exceptional Children, the American Association on Intellectual and Developmental Disabilities, and the Association for Persons with Severe Handicaps. And yet we still have people sitting in their separate corners in many environments, not coming together, and we know it takes a village to support the communication needs of individuals.
00:21:25
Judie, I think some people would be who listen to this podcast would be familiar with the communication Bill of Rights. That's the NJC, right?
00:21:32
Absolutely. And that communication Bill of Rights was written by representatives from all those different agencies. And if I hope that you'll put a little link to that with the with the transcript for this they. I I will say that the NJC is in the process of of revising these Bill of Rights to make them a little bit more user friendly in terms of the wording. Because a lot of the wording is is more I'm not going to say intellectual but but it's at a reading level that's maybe a a 10th grade reading level and in order for it to be accessible to everybody we need to make sure that that a lot of the words that are being used are understandable by a greater population. But the the Bill of Rights is really designed to put a face to a communicator that it's not just these are people with certain needs and they need to have a means of communication, but what do they need to communicate? They have a right to communicate when they they want more information. They have a right to communicate when they're afraid or they need to report something that has happened to them. They they have a right to to ask questions and not just be told things. So those are all different aspects of of the communication Bill of Rights that bear another look. I actually did a a a presentation at a Tia this this year with with another occupational therapist, Charlie Danger who I think has been a a guest on your podcast and here it was 2O T's that we're talking about the communication Bill of Rights. But it has so much to do with the personhood and who we are as as human beings and and what we all aspire to that everybody has that right to have those same feelings and those same emotions and the same opportunity to express them. So if you haven't looked at that, please do because it it will bring home again that this is all of our jobs.
00:23:42
We will absolutely make sure it is LinkedIn, the show notes, Something else. I want to dig into Judie that you said, and I just want to reiterate it is that because I'm feeling I'm having some feelings, some frustrated feelings about the continued silos that you mentioned before. Like, well, I'm a speech therapist, so I'm the one should be making decisions about the AAC or I should be the the leader of the AAC conversation as opposed to. And maybe an occupational therapist who might be like, yeah, that's your thing, not my thing. So yeah, go ahead you clearly that's a defined role that you do that and I do this and never will the two meet. I don't know. That's the right expression. But you know what I'm saying, Right. And that it can even be an excuse to not collaborate because that's your thing and this is my thing. But we see better outcomes when there is collaboration and. We see greater investment from all parties when the they everyone had a say in in what what the choice was. Right now I just I can feel it. I can feel an an assistive technology person or an AAC. Guru or even a speech language pathologist. I've decided it's X. And now the speech. Now the occupational therapist comes in and says like, oh what this kids using prolo quo now like what is this? I didn't know this like oh okay, I guess I'll do that. And I as opposed to being foundational in the decision making process and then the ongoing decision making process about how things are working and how things might be adjusted.
00:25:17
That is a frustration level and and I've I've observed that in some of the districts that I've consulted with and I think again it it boils down to administration, it boils down to communication and it boils down to a united request for ongoing in service training. So people feel competent to make these decisions. Something that I I remember you all were doing as I was leaving Loudon County was revising the way that we start the not the even the assessment process but the preassessment process where we worked on simplifying some of the some of the materials that have been out there for years and years. And they're tried and true, but they're they're cumbersome. And looking at the fact that and I can I maybe you'll disagree with me as an SLP, but as an OT, standardized testing doesn't give us the big picture. As an OT for years and years and years I gave the VMI. And the VMI is one of these free writing strokes that is supposed to be an indicator of whether someone's going to be a competent writer on in terms of the the motor aspect of of producing letters. Well, I had kids that bombed on the VMI, but they could write letters perfectly fine. And I had kids that could produce all those shapes, but they couldn't put them together to to form letters. And so when I, I believe that sometimes we need the standardized tests in order to justify for the insurance company or or to show growth. But we need to be better observers. We need to be better under standards without preconceived notions about if they can't do A then they they certainly can't do B. We need to to look at possibilities, you know, Lauren Anders says, is over and over again presume the potential. And we look need to look at possibilities. And in order to do the best job of doing that we need the more than one perspective. So and I I think that that well tell tell me where you've gone what we're loud and has gone in this process since I left.
00:27:34
Well, let me tell you rather than loud and specific, let me just say, yeah, we call it the resource Consideration Guide and you know we have built it off of. The worked out Johnson, the Wadi, right and like you said that is a very robust tool that you can use and I would point everybody there. But then we've taken it and like you said, we tried to simplify it and and make it so that we can have these conversations. But really all it is, is. It is asking a series of questions to make sure you're not leaving anything out and getting everyone's different perspectives on that answer. You know, just a quick story. Judie the the one of the IT wasn't the meeting that I was late and I had to cancel last week, but it was on the same day I was at a meeting with a speech therapist, occupational therapist, physical therapist, the teacher and the assistive technology person and then me who was supporting, you know, all of those. And based on just the AT person I had this picture, I was like, OK, this kid is going to be, we're going to be. I already know what it's going to be my arrogance getting in the way. It's going to be a a switch we're going to use or maybe multiple switches. We're probably going to end up with core scanner and we're going to be trying that and man, how fast can we do this right by the end of the hour conversation. Completely wrong. That was not where we ended up. We learned from different perspectives. Oh no, this kid is direct selecting and he's using. And the occupational therapist, No, he's hitting, he's, he's finger isolating and he's pushing, pushing a screen. He's doing that all the time. Well, how small? Oh yeah, he could target something smaller. And the speech therapist is like, really? I've never seen him do that. And the teachers like, no, I've seen it when they come in, but how come when I haven't seen it in the conversation erupts. And that's just one aspect of this. Guide would be, you know, how how is the student accessing what they're accessing? But again, the point being this collaborative decision making because when you get those, those different perspectives, wow does it really shape and make a better decision And everyone left going, okay, now we know what we want to try. You know, we're all on the same page.
00:29:37
What we want to try and then it also gives the opportunity for the questions. How come it doesn't work in that one aspect? How come the so and so didn't see it? Is it because it's after lunch and they're full or or maybe they're not getting taken to the toilet in a timely manner and they're thinking more about needing to go to the bathroom than anything else? And so that the problem solving is is so key to assuring success because we have so many things that are given up on and abandoned without really having the analysis of of actually why didn't it work? Was it because it was never charged or so many of those different things?
00:30:15
And what can we do differently as the adults and educators that are supporting to give them an opportunity to to fail, giving them an opportunity to try it, you know, yeah, he never uses that thing or yeah, we hear that all the time. But what? What can we do differently?
00:30:32
So the bigger, the biggest enemy of this though, Chris, is time. And I don't know how we can buy that because I know I remember so many I EP's that were ours at a time and then there was the the idea of streamlining them. And no, no, I EP longer than a certain amount of time. If we don't have time somewhere to have these discussions and they can be asynchronous, they can be through a Google doc where everybody fills it in. But if we don't acknowledge the value of that we're we're, we're, we're failing before we've even, you know, gotten through the whole process, There has to be a time or a means of getting that input from everybody. Because if somebody's out of the loop, then that's one missing piece that that child is going to miss out on, because that person doesn't know they can or can't do it because of A, B or C.
00:31:23
But that's something logistically we can figure out or we can attempt to, right? I mean, right. And I wonder if the more frequently we do it, because I wonder how often that's actually happening, but the more frequently we do it. The better we get at it, you know. And so that time might at first like this meeting that I was in, it took us, you know, over an hour to try and get us to something. But maybe the next time it's 45 minutes because the same players sort of know what that paperwork is.
00:31:49
It when I say paperwork that what the Wadi is you know our version of the Wadi we go through it and the same players will learn to trust each other. Because I know once once I know what you know Chris, I'm I know who to go to if I have a question and they may tell somebody who may tell somebody, who may tell somebody and and it can be such a positive ripple effect.
00:32:11
Yeah. Next time I'm going to be like oh, right, the fluorescent lights maybe that's infecting, you know, that that's impacting things.
00:32:16
You know, you know, back to your story about how the, how the, the, the the screen was obliterated by the lights or sitting position. Oh, those are those are killers when their feet aren't flat on the floor and and they're sliding all over the chair and that's why maybe that they're they're not focused. Yeah, so many different variables.
00:32:36
Let me ask you this too from the occupational therapy lens. A certain frustration again that I think maybe assistive technology people have had. I say people, it's all of us. But a frustration around assistive technology is that notion, and this is certainly something you taught me over the years. You were the first one to really put it in my brain was that assistive technology the first word in that definition is any, any item, right. So this it's not just things that are batteries or that have that are you plug into the wall right. And so assistive technology is sometimes pigeonholed into this thing when really it's it's it's almost anything. Well, in that same breath, do you often feel like occupational therapists get pigeon holed into? All right, this is the fine motor person and that's what they do. They do fine motor and maybe a little sensory if they've advocated for it and everything else sort of falls to the side.
00:33:30
Is that a fair and?
00:33:31
What else? What else should other people be considering besides just those two things?
00:33:35
That's that's a fair thing, and that's a prime example of siloing. And so we have to be our own best advocates. We have to we have to share with administrators that we are more than the talking people or more than the writing people or more than the climb the stairs in the in the P/E room people that that we have more to offer. And and that's that's that's essential in order in order for us to get the point across and and for us to to to advocate for our own profession that that we're more than just one thing and I think that's very repetitive. So you can cut a a bunch of that out when when you edit.
00:34:16
No. Well, Judie, here's the thing. I think, I think people need to hear that. So, and I think maybe some people. In our own disciplines, need to hear it, You know, like because I think some people do get feel real comfortable. Look at I'm the a AAC person and I only do a AAC or I only do language, or I only do articulation. Or I yeah, I only do a fine motor and I only do sensory. I don't do these other things. So from both angles, I feel like it needs to be yelled from the rooftop.
00:34:45
And again, I think, and it's hard because if nobody wants to educate the administrators, the administrators tend to think that way too, especially administrators who are not necessarily special educators. So if we don't want to be pigeonholed, we have to educate everyone about what we have to offer.
00:35:06
So Speaking of educating people, you I mentioned it earlier that you do you get some gigs sometimes to do presentations. Where have you been presenting and what have you been presenting on?
00:35:16
Well, I actually have presented at a couple of national conferences. I I do a Tia and I do closing the gap, but I've also been consulting with several school districts and several state conferences. Some of the things that I've been doing well you you're going to go to Oregon next month, you're doing at ties together and I've done at ties together both in person and virtually for a number of years. And one of the offerings they had virtually last year was Dave Eddie Byrne. And Dave Eddie Byrne was talking about a lot of the technology that we can use nowadays to to change the way print looks and the way print is understood. And it got me to thinking about one of his earlier terms, cognitive rescaling. And so one of the presentations that I developed was based just on that presentation that he did. I went back and I looked at the resources he talked about and I organized them, and I revisited the concept of cognitive rescaling, and I applied it to #1 adapting books, because that's been always a passion of mine, but kind of raised the bar for myself in terms of that's not just for picture books and for early childhood. That's all the way up to chapter books and and everything else. And what are the different things that we can do for making sure because cognitive rescaling isn't just for kids with cognitive challenges. It's for English language learners. It's for kids who can't pay attention long enough to to get that tucked into their long term memory. So I've been doing some presentations on cognitive rescaling. One of my passions that that I've I've done for a number of years with another OT from Loudon County is our adaptive repurposed toolkits which goes back to making junk usable and and we called those our art kits and we made a bunch of different art tools and these are all things that we quote invented these were things that we found from the Internet and we just collected together and organized it because it's an assistive technology trainer. At the time that we developed this this these art tool kits. I was consulting with art teachers and paraprofessionals that went into The Art Room with with students who were doing all their project. Of all the the paraprofessionals were often doing the the students project for for them because they felt that the kid had to leave art class with a product. The art teachers were struggling with how to still support the standards and adjust them accordingly for the student and then the OT Debbie Schwind who was looking at the art toolkits from the standpoint of a child actually performing the art assignment in the classroom. We kind of put together this these kits and then an educational program to go with them to train people on how to use these tools and the tools for simple things like milk jug handles that could be turned into a holder for a tool or PVC apparatus or easels out of pizza boxes. So that the the art project itself was easled up for someone who had difficulty with proximable stability. And if they look down they would kind of lose their balance and everything else. So getting their project up in a in a plane that was viewable to them and so that they could reach. So some of it was common sense, some of it was was particular adaptations, but everything was made with pool noodles and PVC pipe and milk jug handles and things that were around that anybody could turn into a project. And then we used our Maker club, which was allowed in county product to produce 88 of these kits. So every art teacher got one, and then we took it from there to doing whole group trainings so that everybody could learn why these tools worked, how to position the kid, and then how to make the tools themselves. So we did go from that expert model maybe to coaching people to saying, hey, the tool's yours, go run with it. And if you can figure out other things to do, go for it. You have the power to create. So another thing that I I've been doing for a number of years is I love play and I love making accessible toys and there's some great websites. Hasbro Toys. If you're not familiar with this, Hasbro Toys has a collaboration with the Autism Project and they've broken down play into manageable steps for for students who may have difficulty understanding what play really is and they might just scatter play items because they don't know how to do it. And so they've broken it down and they look at the stages of play like the parallel play in the.
00:40:14
The the collaborative play but they've also given visuals like wait time and my turn and a countdown timer. So when play is over and scripts to go along with these these play activities so that kids can be productive players. That's not to force them how to play, but maybe to bring play to fruition. So for example, Mr. Potato Head, maybe it's just all these little parts and they get scattered all over, but maybe sequencing Mr. Potato Head, so first you put in the eyes and then you put in the arms. Not it doesn't matter, the order doesn't matter as much as it is organizing it. So it makes sense so that there there's a product as opposed to just these things that make noise when you push them around on on the table. So that's been another thing that I've been working with. And the fun thing is that very rarely do I do these presentations by myself. I've been presenting with speech and language pathologists. I've been presenting with your your buddy Beth Poss from inclusive from the Inclusive book. I've been presenting with with other people that you've had on on the podcast and I learn from doing that. I learn from their perspectives to make the presentations that I do much more robust. I love adapting books and I just want to highlight this if somebody's interested in adapting books. Becky Jones, who I've I've learned by researching when I when I plan a presentation, just like you do. I research the topics I present very often with Sally Nortondar who's a speech and language pathologist and we've been doing these adapting books workshops for years. But Becky Jones from Tech Access, Rhode Island, and if you haven't interviewed her, she'd be a great interviewee, has created these adapted book kits and she has now produced. She uses a thingling. And she said, well, yeah, you're outside of Rhode Island. You can't check out these kits yourself. Here's how I made them. Here's how I here's where I found this material. Here's where I found this material. Here's where I found this material. Here's where I found this, this material. You can do it yourself. She uses products like lesson pics. She she always incorporates high contrast images. She's gotten information from teacher, pay teacher, but some of the freebies there. She incorporates videos. She incorporates Tar Heel reader.
00:42:38
So she ends up with a really robust adapted book kit that can be used by a wide variety of of learners and there's something for everyone. So she's considered it. Dave Eddie Burn called it his blueprint of diversity. She's he's considered people with visual differences. He's she's considered people with hearing differences, language differences, processing differences, memory differences, attentional differences. And so there's there's something for everyone and you know, somebody that that looks at this kit isn't going to go, oh, this is the one for someone who's not paying attention. I'm only going to do this thing. She's just incorporated these thoughts and these plans into a really nice, nice kit that can be put together. I just finished a webinar on practical, versatile and cheap assisted technology supports. That's PVC for all of you that haven't recognized that that those initials it was put the book was put out in 2005. You can find it on the Internet. Look for practical, versatile and cheap assistive technology supports the Assistive Technology Educational Network out of Florida. I think it's Fiddler's now put it out in 2005. But I I took that handbook and I made every single tool in it. All the little PVC things, there's there's tablet holders, there's the the adjustable eye gaze frame that Linda Burkhardt pioneered that tilts back and forth so that somebody's sideline or on their back can still see what's being displayed. There's a what is an Abacus that you can make with with different widths of PVC. So there you've got a a large counting tool. There's tablet, I said to him. Tablet holders, there's voice output device holders. There's all sorts of things in this book that you can put together. And then I've also gone online and found extra things like I can I have a do it yourself sensory table that you can make out of PVC pipe and drop a steroid rubber made tub inside it. But the cool thing is you can lift that tub out and you can take the PVC pipe apart, store it in the tub along with other things. And you've got a kit that can move from school to school with you. So you can trial it and decide whether the kid needs a low sensory thing that they can sit on the floor and use or they need a high one so their wheelchair can get under it. But you can customize this so everyone can participate. And that's been one of my favorite things. And then years ago our our AT team did some tools for executive function and I've kind of stuck with that one, but kind of stuck with the low tech stuff. The things that you can print, the things that you can fold and the things that you can do with pneumonics because everybody knows the apps and everybody can find all those apps. But sometimes the learner needs to have something in their hand that they can fiddle with and have little pipe cleaners and beads and and dials and things that they can use to indicate their their stress level or their methodology for how mad they are or how happy they are or what they're going to do about it. So. So those are the things I've been working on.
00:45:58
That's it.
00:46:00
That's all I got for now. Oh, you know the, the, the one thing that I am working on I think, I think is, oh, the questing, the thing I'm questing about and curious about. Right now I am reading Karen Erickson and David Copenhaver's book Comprehensive Literacy Again. And I'm using Alyssa Warren's book study to just really delve into that because when I look at it again and again and again, I learn new things about literacy. And we've certainly learned, I mean for years and years and years with my adapted book kits, I was doing everything with rebuses and and you know every, every word had an icon to go with it. And now we know that our kids can do, they can learn the letter sounds. My granddaughter is five and and she is learning to read and the other night I listened to her read and she was you know all the different word sounds and and putting them together and if we don't get kids these tools and if we don't give them the key we're withholding a treasure for from them. So I'm reading that book and then I am aging in place, believe it or not. And so is my mom at 102. And so I am now looking into do it yourself assistive technology for eight. The people that are aging in place. I'm looking at the things that my mom's already doing. I'm looking at like my art toolkits and things and seeing how that applies to that button hooks and stocking puller uppers and and reachers and things like that. So that that I can, I can support my mom and I'm speaking to several groups in the community about those things with that particular age group in mind. And for those of you that are listening to this podcast who are hitting their 50s and their 60s, we have to turn our trust over to to the newer people that are are coming up in the assistive technology community. But we also have to be a voice for what we need as we move forward in our aging process just like we want our kids to have a voice in in advocating for themselves. So that's what I'm doing.
00:48:11
Judie, if people wanted to get in touch with you, what would be the best way for them to do that?
00:48:16
They can e-mail me or they can text me. I don't, I'm, I'm on Twitter. They can, they can. I do the Twitter? Because I do the Twitter, Chris, because you taught me how. But the best way probably would be an e-mail and you can you can produce my e-mail.
00:48:38
You can.
00:48:38
You can invite me back. I would. I would enjoy that very much. This this was not as as scary as I thought it would be. I I told Chris the first time he filmed me that I am paralyzed by indecision. I'm always afraid of taking a misstep. I'm very confident in my in my personal making world that I I know the materials, but I'm less competent, confident about whether that's meaningful to anybody but me. So Chris made this very painless. So if he comes knocking at your door, don't be afraid. You can do this.
00:49:15
Thank you, Judie.
00:49:17
Thank you.