Episode 318: Karina Carter & Nicole Young: Teaching Language to AAC Users with Horses
This week, we share Rachel's interview with Karina Carter and Nicole Young! Karina Carter is a Speech-Language Pathologist (SLP) at Children’s TheraPlay, where horses are used therapeutically to support children with disabilities and/or unique needs, including complex communicators! Nicole is the mother of TY, an AAC User who is one of Karina’s clients. Karina shares all about equine speech therapy with AAC Users, and Nicole shares about her son’s journey becoming an AAC user and (eventual) horse lover with Karina’s help!
Before the interview, Chris shares about his wife's recent completion of a Doctorate in Educational Leadership, and his son, Tucker’s, quest to become a Veterinarian! Congrats Dr. Bugaj and good luck Tucker!
Key Ideas this Episode:
🔑 When AAC Users started bringing their devices onto the horses, the device would be knocked around and was difficult to use, so the Children’s TheraPlay team developed an adjustable AAC stand that is worn around the horse’s neck!
🔑 Occupational Therapists (OTs) and Physical Therapists (PTs) have been using horses for therapy at Children’s TheraPlay for 20 years at TheraPlay, but Karina was the first SLP they hired. She had a lot to learn from PTs and OTs about sensory input and the client’s experience so she could integrate teaching communication with horseback riding.
🔑 During speech therapy, Karina works on a variety of language skills (e.g. prepositions) using tools situated throughout the arena, including a mailbox, poles, and rings. This helps create tempting communication opportunities for her clients!
Links:
Becca Eisenberg’s book, All About Core
Transcript of the Episode
Please Note: This transcript was generated using speech recognition & AI tools; it may contain some grammatical and/or spelling errors.
00:00:08 Rachel Madel
Welcome to Talking with Tech. I'm your host, Rachel Madel, joined, as always, by Chris Bugaj. Hey, Chris.
00:00:13 Chris Bugaj
Hey there, Rachel. Well, so some exciting personal news to share with everybody in the podcast. My wife has been working on her doctorate for the last three, four, three and a half ish years, and she just earned it. Doctor Bouguer walked across the stage at Virginia Commonwealth University and has a doctorate in educational leadership. So I just wanted to congratulate my wife, Melissa Bouguet, Doctor Melissa Bouguet, on her great accomplishment. It has been a long journey with a lot of writing and a lot of researching and a lot of. Just a lot of learning, too. But it is, you know, anyone who's gotten one knows that it is not an easy thing to do, and I'm just super proud of her.
00:00:58 Rachel Madel
Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've witnessed that, Chris, like, I've seen Melissa, like, on the couch next to you, like, working on papers and doing things. And so I am really excited. And shout out, Melissa is so hardworking and amazing and incredible, and now she has this amazing degree to share, which I feel like is so great, and it's really hard work. And I really admire people that take the extra step to get more formalized education in that way, because I oftentimes think, like, wow, that'd be so nice, but I don't think I could ever do it. So I'm, like, always very impressed by people who have doctorates and PhDs and things like that.
00:01:43 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, she worked on a team of, she was one of five. And so there's that whole team dynamic that has to come into play. And it's so interesting, the way you said something, it really triggered a memory for me. So when we were celebrating getting her doctorate, the way it worked is we went to Richmond, Virginia, and there was a little two hour ceremony where they invite people to, who are everyone who's getting their educational leadership doctorate, and they move across and they get 30 seconds to come up and say something like, Melissa got up and was like, I'd like to thank my family and my teammates. That kind of thing, like an award speech, right? Well, this one guy gets up, and he gets up and he goes, yeah, I thank my wife. I thank all my supports. Then he kind of puts his hands together. I'm gonna. Everyone cover your ears. Rubs his hands together, and he leans into the microphone, he goes, and now the real work begins. All this knowledge that we've learned, now we gotta use it to help people. And I was like, started crying. Melissa looked over. I'm like, yeah, dude, that's it. Like, that's what you're doing this for? Yes, it's a personal celebration, but then tomorrow you roll up those sleeves because you gotta do something with that knowledge. And I was just so inspired by that later on in the reception and you walk around and they have little hors d'oeuvres or whatever, and I ran right up to that guy and I was like, hey, I just need to shake your hands because that was amazing. And he was like, yeah, yeah, great. That's what it's all about. We gotta help other people. And I was like, yeah. So it was just an awesome moment.
00:03:13 Rachel Madel
Yeah, I agree. It's kind of like now, like, the real kind of work begins and, yeah, it's great that he kind of, like, recognized that and shared that. So great. Wow, I'm so excited. Congratulations, Melissa.
00:03:29 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, congratulations. Now, there is a second guy that I came up to in that reception, and when he got up in front, he said his thing and at the end, he leaned into the mic, put hands on the podium, leaned into the mic and he said, san Dimas high school football rules. And I looked at my family, I was like, I get that reference. I get that reference. So I ran up to him afterwards and I was like, hey, dude, wild stallions is my favorite band. And he's like, oh, you got the reference. So anyone doesn't know, that's Bill and Ted's reference. And I got it. So I was really proud of myself.
00:04:00 Rachel Madel
Sounds like it was a lot of fun celebrating this weekend.
00:04:03 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, it was, it was. It was great. My son, he finished his freshman year and he left there, drove across the state of Virginia to get to Richmond and celebrate. So we were all together and it was a great. Melissa's a great role model for our kids, you know that. And for kids in general, that was a thing. It was also a theme, is that everyone brought their kids and there was so many young kids there, like, looking down at them going, see, you can do this one day, too, you know. So it was really inspiring weekend after a lot of hard work. And Melissa, yes, it is time to get to work, but it is also. Maybe she can read a book for fun.
00:04:42 Rachel Madel
You know, let's just, like, take a break.
00:04:43 Nicole Young
Let's take a breather.
00:04:44 Rachel Madel
Let's have some fun. Let's relax.
00:04:46 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It was. It was so great. I came downstairs, turned around the corner, and she was sitting there. So Richmond, Virginia, has the Edgar Allen Poe museum. And Melissa's a big Edgar Allen Poe fan. And so she. We went there, and it's small, like, we were there for an hour, but she bought herself a book. I came downstairs and came around the corner, and I was expecting to see her there with the laptop typing, and there she was under the blankets with the book open, and I was like.
00:05:14 Rachel Madel
Yeah, things have changed. Things are changing for the better.
00:05:19 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, yeah. And then just another thing that I don't think I ever celebrated about my wife, and that is last school year, she was named one of the special ed, special education advisory council administrator, inclusive administrator of the year. She won that award, and I never did say it here on the podcast. So, again, I just. If this banter is about celebrating, uh, Doctor Bouguet, then I want to call that out, too. Is that she, um, you know, on a day in, day out basis, uh, really provides an inclusive experience for all this, all the learners in her school. And then really, like a. Really prides herself on building relationships with the families, and. And that really was nice to be celebrated. Other people saw that and nominated her, and then she won. And so that was also just a moment where my heart swelled with pride.
00:06:13 Rachel Madel
I'm sure, especially given all the work that you do, Chris. I feel like that combination is really powerful and unique. And, of course, in this podcast, we're all about inclusion and just all the things that help support all of our learners all the time. And so I love it.
00:06:32 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, it's really great to take a moment and celebrate those wins that you see. Um, so, okay, one last thing, and that is, uh, sorry. This is all about celebrating my family right now, but my son Tucker, uh, wants to be a veterinarian, and when he, uh, he's currently looking at small animals, but really, he's keeping his door open for anything. And one of the things he did to build his resume, but also just because he loves animals, back when he was in high school, is he volunteered at, um, some stables, some local stables where he was, you know, the person raking the hay and cleaning up the stuff. And then he got a job working at a local vet clinic as well. I'm just saying he has some experience with horses, which I think leads us into our interview for today.
00:07:18 Rachel Madel
So I had the pleasure of interviewing Karina Carter and Nicole Young, and we talk all about AAC and equine therapy and horses, and it was such an amazing interview. We were, they reached out to us, actually shared how valuable the podcast has been and share all about her. It's basically, it's a speech therapist and a mom to a child of complex communication needs who uses AAC. Such a beautiful relationship that they developed. So we had both of them on the podcast, and literally, Chris, we did this interview in a stable. Like, we were in a barn, and there was a horse in the background at one point who, like, popped its head out. So it was just like. So it was so great. And it's just really cool to hear what this clinic has done as far as supporting students and their learning of language through AAC on the backs of horses. So I'm really excited to share the interview I did with Nicole Young and Karina Carter.
00:08:32 Chris Bugaj
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00:09:08 Rachel Madel
Welcome to talking with Tech. I'm your host, Rachel Madl, joined today by Karina Carter and Nicole Young. I'm so excited to have you guys here.
00:09:16 Karina Carter
Thanks for having us.
00:09:17 Nicole Young
Yes, thank you.
00:09:18 Rachel Madel
So, first, can you guys just start off by introducing yourselves? Who are you? What do you do?
00:09:24 Karina Carter
I'm Karina Carter. I'm a speech language pathologist at the Children's Therapy foundation in Indianapolis, Indiana. Well, technically Carmel, but in the Indianapolis area. And I have been here at children's therapy for going on three years this fall.
00:09:42 Rachel Madel
Amazing.
00:09:44 Nicole Young
And I'm Nicole young. I'm here as a parent, but professionally, I'm also a speech therapist. Pediatrics is not my area. I work with the elderly population. But my son is blessed to have Miss Karina as his speech therapist so bridged his voice.
00:10:04 Rachel Madel
I love it. And I have to give our listeners some context here. Karina, you reached out to us via email saying that you're a listener of the podcast, and you shared a lot of kind of your story, and you talked about equine therapy, and you guys are actually sitting in a stable right now doing this interview. So for our listeners who aren't able to see what I'm seeing, I'm, like, hoping that, like, a horse comes out and says hello.
00:10:31 Karina Carter
I hope so, too. Right now, Beau behind us is eating his dinner, so we'll see if we can. I don't know, get him away from the food for a little bit.
00:10:38 Nicole Young
It's getting lower. So hopefully.
00:10:41 Karina Carter
Yeah. So here at children's theraply, we utilize the horse as a treatment tool. So we have many tools in our tool bag as therapists, and we are just so blessed here to be able to use the horse as well. So part of our sessions are clinical, so we are just within a regular pediatric outpatient clinic. And then half of our sessions, we come out to our arena where we have the child on the horse, and I'm standing next to the horse, and we have a sidewalker on the other side of the horse, and behind that horse is a handler, and the handler guides the horse throughout the session. So we have. It's been a work in progress. So I started the program three years ago. They had had OT and PT here for 20 years, but they got a new facility and had the space for speech therapy. So it's been a really fun ride of learning how to utilize communication devices and horses, and it's been so fun to see the kids be able to direct really large horses, to go, to stop, to go fast, to trot. And so it's been really fun.
00:11:57 Nicole Young
I think she's very modest, but I think she needs to explain more of the process because she has really opened the eyes of her team and the parents, because I'm here as a parent, and I will say truly, everybody in the village of children's therapy as parents, like this woman started this three years ago. So, like, she. It was a job that was posted for the development of speech therapy here. And when my son started with her in August 2022, it was a four month wait for her. It is now a two year wait for her. It's only a three year program, and I'm gonna make her blush. But there's more to the development of the speech, and I feel like she needs to explain more because listen to the podcast. Like, people are out there trying to break the ceiling to show that AAC can go further, you know, as part of the child. It's not a device. Like, we see kids playing on iPads all the time. It is their voice and it's connected to them. And I'm sorry, I'm putting her on the spot.
00:13:19 Karina Carter
Well, I love Nicole, how you mentioned that the device is. It's. Sometimes I have a hard time saying device because it. It's a child's communication and it's there. It's part of them.
00:13:34 Nicole Young
We call it the talker.
00:13:35 Karina Carter
Yeah, we call it talker. We call it their voice, and. But, yeah, it's been so neat to come into a team of Ot's and pts that they're like, oh, yeah, we have speech therapy. This is awesome. And they. And I think when people think speech therapy, they think verbal communication. And, yeah, so many kiddos out there do use verbal communication, but so many of our wonderful, talented, amazing kids use, like, total communication or signs, verbal device, or just. Or talker or just a talker or just sign. And so it's been fun to educate team, educate family. The families within theraplay about just the beauty and the wonder of helping kids communicate in whatever way they communicate. So, yeah, at first, we weren't even allowed to bring our devices out into the arena by the horses. They told me to keep the talkers in the mud room because. And so then we had to educate. Oh, no, this is part of the child. The child. It has to come to the heart. And so then the barn team worked wonderfully with us. They were just so understanding. They're like, oh, okay. And, like, this is part of their communication. This is part of them. And so then we were able to get on the horse, but then we realized, wait a second, it keeps flopping everywhere. We can't trot or I can't help model when they're on the horse because I'm holding on to the talker while holding onto the child, and the horse is moving. So then we worked with our beautiful volunteer staff. We have amazing volunteers here, and we were able to work together to create a folder for the talker. So now the talker is on a holder, which we have here, actually, today.
00:15:30 Rachel Madel
Ooh, wow.
00:15:32 Karina Carter
Kind of like for those that are listening, it's a phone platform that on the top of it is wood, so it's a little bit sturdy for the placement of the talker, but it has slip resistant tapping, so it kind of holds it in place. And then the foam part can nice gently go around the horse's neck and mane, and then we have little hooks here that hook around the horse.
00:16:04 Nicole Young
Yeah.
00:16:05 Rachel Madel
So amazing.
00:16:07 Karina Carter
So it's been amazing to work with the volunteer team to put that together. And then with our Ot's and pts, they've really realized, like, oh, this is. This is communication. And now I see all the kids out with their talkers, and we've been able to. I feel like sometimes I'm Oprah. Like, you get a talker and you get a talker and you get a talker. Everybody gets a talker. So it's just so fun to see everybody just rally around it. And kids are thriving. Like, Nicole's son is just thriving, and it's just been such a joy to experience. You have amazing son. Thank you.
00:16:52 Nicole Young
I think.
00:16:52 Karina Carter
So we had a dance party the other day. It was great.
00:16:56 Rachel Madel
So, Nicole, I'm really excited to kind of hear your journey with your son. Can you share a little bit about what that has looked like? He, you know, obviously is an AAC user, and we know that the road to AAC is not always easy, and it's sometimes twisting and turning. So can you share a little bit about what that experience has been?
00:17:20 Nicole Young
We were led here by, actually, our babysitter. She actually saw a newspaper article in the Indianapolis Star, and it was around March, maybe 2022. And so we were blessed that when Covid hit as a speech therapist, my job actually dealt with working with people post Covid, and my building was actually a designated Covid site. So when people didn't need to have a hospital, they would come to us, but they still needed care. So my babysitter actually was. We were very fortunate that she said, go ahead and keep bringing your kids. You know, just, we were getting Covid tested and everything. But then thad fell through a hole. Like, we see most of our kids with ASD, you know, that he was two, and all of a sudden that it just. His delays weren't catching up. So we ended up doing first steps here in Indiana, which is the early intervention, where eventually they came out of zooming. That was a headache for me. But they actually went to Lisa's house, so she actually embraced them and let his OT and speech occur. And so she knew the gap still was not closing. And two years later, in the newspaper, she was like, oh, Nicole, did you ever hear about hypotherapy? And did you know about children's therapy up on in Carmel? And I was like, no. And why she brought it up is I grew up with horses, and so did she. So we always talked about equine and how they're amazing creatures. And I knew of hypotherapy, but didn't realize we had one locally. So I proceeded to call children's therapy, because, of course, one of the big elephants in the room is. Was. That was non speaking. And then another elephant in the closet was ot, where he absolutely despises anything by motor. And so I ended up calling, and they were like, well, there's a four month wait and what therapies do you want? And I said, well, we would definitely like back to back speech and ot. So thank gosh it was only four months and not two years, but made it here. And he absolutely hated the horses. Did very well in the classrooms with ot and speech. Again, attention was what, like 30 seconds? Like, if.
00:20:18 Karina Carter
If that. It was maybe around that. Yeah.
00:20:22 Nicole Young
And, um, because I grew up in a barn, I decided during my time for my therapy to actually volunteer in the barn. And so I got to clean the stops. And I know that sounds crazy, but once a week is better than every day.
00:20:40 Rachel Madel
True.
00:20:41 Nicole Young
So I got to actually meet the barn crew. And I always felt bad for Karina because she had actually walked out to the barn after speech session to update me. And again, I am a speech therapist in writing with. On paperwork, but not in this. And I'm definitely not an AC user. So I knew enough because I graduated from my college in 2006, where Toby Dynavox and board maker was pretty much the only language I knew. So I vaguely remember her talking about AC. Okay, that's fine. Go ahead. And probably talking about lamp. But it didn't. Did not register, especially if I had a pitchfork in my hand and poop it.
00:21:32 Rachel Madel
Totally.
00:21:34 Nicole Young
But, you know, sadly, Thad, knowing, you know, as clinicians, we all know I work in healthcare, billing and everything, that was not getting on the horse. So she's trying to bridge his voice, and all of a sudden, she came up to me and said, okay, scratch lamp. Gonna try touch chat. And I'm like, okay, whatever, you know? Again, language. Not getting it. I'm worried we're gonna get discharged because we're having those conversations with his wonderful ot, Joanna. And at that time, speech was not in the rotation. You guys weren't in the rotation to what horse?
00:22:20 Karina Carter
Oh, I don't know.
00:22:21 Nicole Young
Was it January 2023?
00:22:25 Karina Carter
Yeah. Fall maybe. I don't know. It was probably about a year and a half of the speech program until we were consistently in rotation for equine.
00:22:33 Nicole Young
Yeah. So they were just sub in. So, thankfully, the day that she had breakthrough with that on touch chat, I walked in from the barn to change. She goes, hurry up and change. I have exciting news. And we went back to the classroom, and she walked me through it and said, I found his voice. And while we're in there, we're talking about it. And then that's when she told me they were going into the rotation, because I was like, okay, it sounds like dad's going to be discharged because he's not getting on the horse. And she was already starting to think of outpatient places to send him, so we didn't lose the voice. This is where it gets tough, because remember that moment? So as we're celebrating his voice and realizing he's going to have to get discharged from Ot speech, we walk out in the village celebrating him because he actually rode Nemo, who's back here, the smallest pony. But they all knew he was so close to being discharged that they were, like, shouting when we walked out. So here he found his. We found his voice, or you found his voice, and then he's not going to get to charge. So we're like a month. We're all like, keep getting on. Keep getting on. Yeah. And so it was just amazing. And now he's the kid who's on the horse asking to go fast.
00:24:12 Karina Carter
He wants to trot. So.
00:24:17 Nicole Young
But again, I don't. To me, I just always think of, you know, because I didn't. I wasn't inside to watch her do the assessment. And all I can imagine is, like, I love Harry Potter. She knows I love Harry Potter. And I don't own them. JK Rowling's does. But I just think for anybody that works, like you guys with AC, it's like the sorting hat, find a voice, you know?
00:24:44 Rachel Madel
Yeah.
00:24:45 Nicole Young
And I, you know, like, there's Gryffindor, you know, hufflepuff. I'm hufflepuff. But, you know. But, you know, like, you have, like, the house of touch chat. You have the house of lamp. You have the house of to go, and then you have, like, eye gaze, you know, like his sorting hat. Like, he could have been like, a Neville who was not. We all wondered, why was he in Gryffindor? Why was he in Gryffindor? You know, where she could have the sorting hat? She could have put him in lamp, but instead she listened to his voice and put him in touch chat. And he's going to flourish in there. But again, if it was lamp, because Lamp's around here a lot, like most of his friends are on lamp. I think eventually he would have blossomed. But the fact that he has just taken off. So the little boy that never had, what, like 30 seconds attention span at that, now not wanting to get on the horse, is now the kid that is asking to go fast every time.
00:25:51 Karina Carter
And playing and playing and playing with everyone. He comes in and greeting people, blowing mom kisses through the window.
00:25:59 Nicole Young
Oh, yes, blowing the staff kisses, too.
00:26:03 Rachel Madel
Awesome.
00:26:05 Nicole Young
So. But, yeah, that's his journey here. And again, it's his village. And for me, as a mom and knowing as a clinician, I need to be the Lisiason for the rest of his village, like his school preschool, you know, school district preschool, and he's also in Aba preschool, and he has, I think, seven speech therapists behind him right now. Wow.
00:26:32 Karina Carter
That.
00:26:32 Nicole Young
I need to make sure to bridge that for him. And they are all, like, jumping on the foundation she's created to continue helping him become an independent communicator. I can take more Harry Potter anytime you want.
00:26:52 Rachel Madel
I love that. Yeah, I love that metaphor. Chris is really going to love that.
00:26:57 Nicole Young
Transferring into a, you know, independent communicator.
00:27:02 Karina Carter
So.
00:27:03 Nicole Young
But, yes, but anyway, I hope that helped.
00:27:06 Rachel Madel
Yes. No, it was amazing to hear, and I feel like, what a synchronous day when, you know, we found and landed on an AAC system that we were seeing success with, and he decided that he was going to push forward and get more comfortable getting on the horse. I feel like, yeah, I'm sure that was, in some ways, a stressful journey, figuring out, is he gonna take off? Like, what do we do? How do we support him? And I think a lot of families feel that there's so many unknowns, and as clinicians who do this work, we kind of understand, I believe that all children, when given access to the right supports, can learn how to communicate.
00:27:53 Chris Bugaj
It's.
00:27:54 Rachel Madel
It's never a question in my mind when I meet a child whether or not I'll be able to help support that communication. Um, but I'm sure as a parent, it's like, is this going to work for my child? Like, is. Is my child actually going to be able to do this? Um, and it sounds like you kind of had those fears, and I'm sure there was, like, this wave of relief that came over of you on that day. Like, oh, my goodness. Thank goodness that, like, things are falling into place finally.
00:28:22 Nicole Young
And I think a lot of it is, like I said, it's a great community that they've established here. They've changed this building a little bit that before. I've heard parents have been here for quite a few years before they made the new building, that they didn't have a weight room, really, for parents to get to know each other as well. And so, like I said, it's a celebration. And I'm telling you, like, listening to the parents, we just. Another little girl just got into speech. It's like the golden ticket. I'm like, we got her, you know? I know that sounds everybody, you know, and if they can't get into Carina, the parents are like, how do. Where should I look? Where should. What could I do to get my child? Because it's a game changer, you know, like, yeah.
00:29:22 Karina Carter
And to kind of piggyback off of Nicole's story and her son is just really thinking of the speech therapists and the. Within our community as well. And it's really great. In Indianapolis, we have a really great community of speech therapists. So I knew that some treat treatment tools, it's never a one size fits all. You have so many tools in your toolbox to support kids, and some kids really thrive off of, you know, horses as a treatment tool. And some kids, it's, you know, not now, maybe later. And some kids are like, no, I just really don't like horses. And that's okay. It's just finding that that fit. And so the nice thing is, I knew that Nicole and dad would be in good hands, you know, if this wasn't the right fit, because there is a good network of. Within our community here, and the village extends beyond our walls, and we're really. We're really blessed for that.
00:30:20 Nicole Young
Yes.
00:30:22 Rachel Madel
Tell me a little bit, Karina, about thinking to even fuse these two things together. I feel like it's so interesting, and I was excited to kind of have you guys on the podcast, because I was like, yes, like, especially cool that you have fashioned, like, an adaptive stand for the AAC device on the horse. I feel like I need a picture of that and share it in our Facebook group or something. But, you know, talk to me a little bit about that, because many people would say, I literally just got off a call, actually, right before this interview where I was working with a BCBA, and the BCBA was like, how do you approach people who kind of, like, take the device and then put it aside during the sessions? And I was like, tell me more. And it's like, well, the ape teacher always just, like, takes, you know, this child's device and just puts it to the side for the entire session. And I feel like, you know, one might think like, yes, when a child gets on top of a horse, let's put the device to the side. And it sounds like, you know, that was kind of the initial stages of what happened when you started doing this work. And obviously, you educated, you know, the team on the fact that this is a child's an extension of their. Their body, their being.
00:31:32 Karina Carter
Right.
00:31:32 Rachel Madel
It's their voice. So how did you kind of fuse that? What kinds of roadblocks did you run into? Like, what was that whole process like for you?
00:31:41 Karina Carter
Yeah. So it's been really nice having the foundation of theraplay that they've been utilizing horses for 20 years. And so with the pts and Ot's, they did a really great job with helping me learn actual. It sounds silly, but, like, the movement of the horse, because I originally thought like, one size fits all, it's a horse, and the horse moves and you sit on the horse. Depending on the size, depending on the structure, depending on the personality, a child is going to get different sensory input from it, and they're also going to get a different experience on the horse as well. So we work with AHA, which is the American Hypotherapy association. So I was able to get some really great training through them, through level one and level two. So that was also super helpful that our clinic has a good connection with them. So they have speech therapy as part of that level one and level two training. That was really great to have that connection. And so I guess that the hardest part for me was I underst. I was starting to understand that horse movement physiologically supports a child's system, or whether in sensory and all of these different pieces. But I was trying to figure out how can I more easily input language and communication, whether it's verbal or through a talker, how can I integrate all of this with the horse? And so the first thing, it was funny, I was known as the stop start therapist because he would stop, go, and the horses would stop, and then the child would go, go, and then we'd stop, and then we'd go. But then I was starting to be able to figure, okay, what more language, there's more language that we can do than just stop and go. And so it really pushed me as a clinician. Okay, we're thinking of speed, we're thinking of location. Are they going to sit forward? Are they going to sit backwards? Are they going to sit sideways? We have rings that can go on poles and so, okay, prepositions on and off. And then we got a mailbox in our arena, and I was known as the mailbox queen because for the longest time I was working on in and out, and so all these different things. And now it's been really great just working with the team. We're consistently getting more and more things into our arena. Like we're getting a bridge. One of our volunteers is building us a bridge for the horses to go over, and we're starting to integrate social situation so kids that they'll pass each other on the horses. And so we're working on saying, hey, how are you? Or working on that, calling attention across a location because you're still within the arena but you can be like, hey. And, like. And the other kid will kind of, like, turn around, and it's just really cool to have those engagements there. So it's been where we're just moving and grooving and learning and growing, and each day I feel like there's something new. So it's fun.
00:35:20 Rachel Madel
Yeah, I mean, that's the cool thing, is, like, language is everywhere, right? And we can create language rich experiences no matter what we're doing. And that's, I'm sure part of the work that you do is just kind of a constant uncovering of, like, oh, I never thought about this word or this situation. As new situations arise.
00:35:37 Karina Carter
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:39 Nicole Young
And then you also do tact days, too.
00:35:43 Karina Carter
Oh, yeah. Tag days. Thank you for bringing that up. So tag days are a really special new thing that we had started about a year ago or so. And what they are, they're just animal assisted sessions. So every, I think, four session, a child won't use epine movement, but we have tiny ponies as well as a service dog. And so our session will incorporate one or both of that. So it can integrate, like, grooming the tiny ponies, so brushing them, putting bows in their hair. We now have hair paint that. They can paint the ponies hair. We have, like, really fun. The tinsel. Have you seen the tinsel?
00:36:26 Nicole Young
No.
00:36:27 Karina Carter
And we, like, put, like, little tinsel streaks in the tiny pony's hair. And then a favorite of thads with our service dog. He loves to play fetch with AJ, our service dog, so he'll. And AJ responds to all these different commands, so that's able to give the commands on his talker, and then I play verbally, and then AJ does it, so it's. It's fun.
00:36:51 Rachel Madel
Oh, I love that. That's so fun. And you know how many of our students have dogs at home, right? Like, that's, like, such a great transition. Nicole. Yeah. You have a dog. So it's like, what a great carryover activity.
00:37:03 Karina Carter
Well, I think that's why we started practicing it, because Nicole came in one day, and she's like, so that's trying to play with the dog. I'm like, perfect. AJ, where are you? So we were able to play fetch and have dad learn the language around that, and then you took a video, I think, if I remember correctly, of you guys practicing that same thing at home with your daughter. So it was a fun connection.
00:37:28 Nicole Young
Yes.
00:37:30 Rachel Madel
I love that so much. What's one thing you'd say has been, like, the biggest learning moment for you in the work that you've done.
00:37:40 Karina Carter
Listen, listen. Listen to the child, listen to the mom, listen to the dad, listen to the caregiver. Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing I've learned, because the moment that I stopped listening, I feel like I take away that empowerment. I take away spark, I take away joy, I take away that being bad.
00:38:13 Nicole Young
And.
00:38:16 Karina Carter
I'm a completely different clinician since I've met nipple and bad and your family. And I think a lot of it, a lot of it has been from just listening.
00:38:28 Nicole Young
Well, like, one going off of that, like, before she takes him back to the classroom or out in the arena, all of the clinicians do this. They do ask, like, what. How's it going? What have you been working on? And we. I've told her, like, dad will provide an answer to, like, a question, but he's not good at answering yes or no. So you might ask him, like, do you want to have crackers or whatever? And he's just like, I want crackers. And so one day she. They worked on yes, no, but then also collaborated it. Because I've been using a book all about poor, trying to. I'm. I'm a geek. I want to help build his voice up. So listen. Or I'm reading, oh, a book by, what's her name? Karen Donaldson. Comprehension literacy.
00:39:29 Rachel Madel
Oh, yeah. Comprehensive literacy for all. Karen Anderson and David Copenhaver.
00:39:34 Karina Carter
Yes.
00:39:35 Nicole Young
It's not a light read, but I'm trying to, again, like, build his voice and help him with his pre literacy so that he can get the core words and everything like that. So I have this book by a wonderful SLP. And so it's called all about poor. I don't know her, but I love it because I'm reading it with that. But every week I do a different letter. And so the arena is really cool, and obviously you're not mobile, but they have really established it with kid friendly that, like, on the walls is the different Alphabet letters and the numbers. And so she's like, what are you working on? I was like, oh, this book. And I gave her a copy, and she goes, great. What letter are you on? And so I think it was a at that time. She goes, we'll work on it back there, too. And then. Why they were out in the arena. They started working on yes, no. So she would come up to a letter, is this a? And he would say, no. And then when they came up to, like, this is what she told me. Yeah, yeah. And then when they got to a, is this a? And he had to think about it. And then he said, yes. So, like, it's. That's where she listens, because she's trying to build on what we're working on at home and also the rest of his village at the school, at, uh, his aba. And, yes. So we are very blessed that she listens, and that's amazing that she does. That's why, again, everybody feels like they got the golden ticket when they get.
00:41:17 Rachel Madel
It's Renelle and Willy Wonka, and if you get to work with Karina, you got the golden ticket. Fun fact, actually, Becca Eisenberg has been on our podcast. So shout out to Becca as a.
00:41:31 Nicole Young
Parent and you want to actually help model with your kid, because I have my own device, and.
00:41:37 Karina Carter
Which is amazing.
00:41:39 Nicole Young
And the reason I have my own device is when that actually started clicking, we were waiting on insurance, and we know how much insurance can be a lovely thing and can be something that we just are like, okay, we're going to go around it. And so she actually looked at Easter Seals and said, they have a lyndian library. And so when I got on there, it was an iPad. And I was like, well, we'll just get an iPad. And then we got. And then I downloaded touch chat, and then I learned. What is it? The drop.
00:42:12 Karina Carter
Oh, the airdrop.
00:42:13 Nicole Young
The airdrop. See, I'm not a tech person, and now I have to live in tech. So I listen to you guys like, you have no idea. I'm, like, writing down notes, and I'm like, oh, crap, something else I need to learn. But anyway, so I have that. And then we ended up getting the device. But I will tell you, I am an SLP. I am not savvy with this. So I. When I'm reading to him, I model it for him first. And I know you have talked about, you know, sometimes they're not ready for full sentences, but I'm like, at least I can model where it is. And then have him hand over hand. And thad, he's really like, he. He's unsure half the time. He'll grab my hand, like, under here, and he'll guide. He'll guide.
00:43:04 Karina Carter
So it's kind of like his hand on your. No, no, it's his hand under your.
00:43:11 Nicole Young
No, it's hot. Like, he'll grab my hand, and then. I don't know how you would explain that. And then he goes for it. It's almost like it's reassuring that I'm there, but most of the time, he's hovering right by the word. He does that for you. He does it for me.
00:43:28 Karina Carter
Yeah, he'll grab. What he'll do sometime is he's sometimes really scared of getting things.
00:43:35 Nicole Young
He doesn't like the word no.
00:43:38 Karina Carter
And I think he's also kind of hesitant of like, am I doing this right? Is this the right word? Can I. Can I say this word? And really just building his. His empowering him to. Yeah, you can. You can tell me whatever you want. You can tell me this word. It's okay if you get it wrong. I'm here to help you. It's not it, you know, but sometimes he will. For that assurance, he'll grab my hand and he'll guide my hand, and then he makes me, like, he'll push down on my finger. So I'm selecting that icon. So. And then because it's. Yeah, I think it's like a reassurance for him. Yeah.
00:44:14 Nicole Young
But anyway, so I do that, but it kind of built from over Christmas. I was doing an advent calendar with him. And my mom, who's a retired educator, said it's like March Madness. It's over. I cannot deal with this. So she actually created like a toe. Yeah. Like a tote, like where you put your jewelry in, but she has like a through z and like the shapes. And then another one she did of the numbers. And she goes, now figure out what you're going to do with it. But I need you to record this every, you know, day so I can see him do something with his AC device. And I'm telling you, like, my parents are amazing because they've now added touch chat to their iPads. And because my nephews I share with her, they have wanted him to talk to them forever. And so it was on Mother's Day last year. He's now on touch chat 60, but he was on touched at 25. And when my nephew Theo came in, he dad said hi. And Theo was like, he talked to me. Aw, he talked to me. And then he started stimming on pet my dogs. And again, listening to your podcast. Like, I didn't know by then I hadn't been listening to your podcast. She turned me on around like August, but he got a kick out of it. Like, pet my dogs. Pet my dogs. Pet my dogs. Pet my dogs. And if it wasn't that, it was rhinoceros. Rhinoceros. Rhinoceros. But again, listening to you guys, listening to her, soaking in everything I can to be a empowering parent and advocating for him, I was like, oh, modeling. Okay, well, I. We have the extra iPad. And so trying like when we get together with my nephews is once in the blue moon, and my mom's like, well, I understand this modeling thing, but we don't see you. So they ended up downloading it, came to my house, air dropped. I was very impressive to my mom at that moment. I knew how to airdropping, but, um. But they now have been practicing and we're actually going on family vacation in a week. And so, Orlando, you're going to see like four kids with their iPads and talkers coughing up a storm. But it's just, again, it's things that you guys have said on the podcast, what she's talked about, reading all these books that you guys recommend. And Kelly Coleman, I'm going to get your book.
00:47:13 Rachel Madel
Kelly will be happy to hear that.
00:47:14 Nicole Young
You know, it just. How can I? Because at this point, I am his voice. Typical voice. But I want it to transition to him, you know? And we have a amazing village here at the schools. And then the family are just buying into it because it is a huge game changer. And I'm going to cry again. I'm going to start crying. But it's like you. You know, you've seen. You guys have seen it, but, like, we still need to, like, get it out there in the community and, like, using the core boards. We went to great Wolf Lodge. Can't take the device in the water, but we'll make a core board and laminate it. And that's all we did.
00:48:00 Karina Carter
Yeah, we had his homepage on one, and then on the back of it was a great wolf lodge and it was laminated so he could have that in the water and then. And the dry area, he had his actual talker. Yes. But that was so fun to make with you, Nicole. So, yeah, it's fun thinking outside the box.
00:48:18 Nicole Young
Yeah. And it was fun letting the community that we didn't know see him because he. I did not expect him to go down every single slide. Like, he ended up being the slide king. Like, I heard that Jordan Zimmerman likes slides. I'm like, you got a little buddy for you.
00:48:37 Rachel Madel
Jordan? We saw at Ataa going down the huge water slide, so.
00:48:42 Karina Carter
Correct.
00:48:43 Nicole Young
Yes. So any different? We had a special, you know, swimsuit on him because he. It's called a swim pal. So it kind of helps him buoy because he's the kid that would go underwater and happily drown as he's going down, you know, so buoys him. And then he has this. We did headphones. There's no waterproof headphones, but we designated one for him. And then he had the. But it was nice. Like, moms would just kind of smile, like, big smiles, that it was just like, yes, he's communicating. He's telling me, go, slide, go. You know, and he started flipping it, you know, so it me, like, even, I guess, as a parent, don't be afraid to take them out with their voices, which is their wand. Remember their wizards and their witches, and that is their wand, a wizard and a. Which is not as magical without their wand. So please don't be scared to model for your kids. It's scary. And that's where I'm going to try to own it and try to help parents in my neck of the woods to model. Because the saddest thing I hear is on your podcast and other places, like, it's just for school. No, it's not just for school.
00:50:07 Rachel Madel
You know, it sounds like you guys have really created a culture around AAC and really integrated into the community. And I feel like showing people something as simple as, like, we can help students with disabilities learn how to communicate using technology on a horse and in a pool or in a lake or, you know, wherever. You know, how powerful is that? And, Nicole, to kind of reiterate what you just shared, being the mom who goes and is reading the books, listening to the podcast, showing up places with her, you know, laminated core board for the. For swim time, and modeling language, I mean, that does really create a culture around AAC. It helps educate people in ways that you don't even realize it is happening. And over time, you know, we just start to create a world where, you know, we accept all different modalities of communication, and we're including kids and adults with disabilities. And it sounds like you guys have just done an amazing job at cultivating that in your little neck of the woods.
00:51:19 Karina Carter
Thank you.
00:51:20 Rachel Madel
Yeah, thanks. Of course. So, is there anything else that we haven't talked about that you guys still feel like is left to share?
00:51:29 Karina Carter
Well, I just want to brag on Nicole a little bit here.
00:51:32 Nicole Young
Yes.
00:51:33 Rachel Madel
Go. Let's do it. This is a love festival.
00:51:35 Karina Carter
That's to show the importance of finding community. It is the neatest thing when we're in the arena and there's windows, so you can see into the waiting room, because the parents can see in the waiting room, and we can see into the waiting room, and you see a new parent come in, and they have that new parent look on their face. They're a little unsure, they're a little scared, they're a little bit wary. And then here comes Nicole, and she just, like, wraps them in, and she has this huge smile on, and you just see over time, that fear and that look of, like deer in the headlights starts becoming excited and happy and heard and understood. And it's just so neat to see parents helping parents, parents loving parents, parents creating. Yeah, it's just amazing. And now, like, there's kiddos that are getting together outside of theraplay, and they're having play dates with their talkers. Thank you, Nicole. And it's really, really neat to see.
00:52:50 Nicole Young
And by the way, I'm not in the barn anymore because one of the most amazing moments was, again, that only had 32nd attention. Right. I left the barn in the summertime because Karina said he was looking for you. He was looking for me through the window. And, oh, you know, that was the moment that I was like, okay, I got to take my therapy away. It's been lovely smelling the barn right now, but I needed to now step into the moment and be there for him. And it's like, again, a great village out in the barn. But then when I fully embraced the village indoors, I got to know more parents. I got to talk with them. I mean, we don't even talk always. Aac. My son has smos, orthotics, and we talk about shoes. What shoes work for what? Orthotics. Besides, the billy's billies are great, but, you know, it's just like, oh, did you hear about stride? Right? So I'm going to plug those, because for actual tennis shoes, they have extra wide that doesn't need those, but some of our friends do. But he has the wide and they work, and we still have our bellies, but it's just nice to have a nice pair of tennis shoes as well that actually light up and have fun, that he can be like a normal little kid. So, yes, we all like, and it's a small world, and I'm sure you guys have it where you're from, but parents talk. We know what school districts people want to move to, and we know school districts families don't want to live in, and they shop. So, anyway, we're in a good district, but, you know, it just, it's one of those. And we talk about different therapies. Like, there's going to be on the west side in Indianapolis, opening up aquatic center. Well, my son loves to swim and with, yes, with PT. Bust the ceilings, people bust the ceilings. We need AC there. He's not leaving here. But four boards go in the water and, you know, but, yes, floatation devices. Yes.
00:55:25 Rachel Madel
I mean, you guys are really like creative with what I've seen what you do with horses, so I can't imagine.
00:55:33 Nicole Young
So she put an AC device on a bike today.
00:55:35 Karina Carter
Oh, yeah. That was fun. That was fun.
00:55:38 Rachel Madel
Wow. I love it, you guys. This has been so fun. And there's obviously a lot of love between the two of you. And I feel like not only have you guys shared about your own individual journeys and experiences, but I feel like one of the most beautiful things is seeing this kind of therapist parent connection. And you guys do a beautiful job of showcasing what a special relationship that can be. And I'm excited to share this podcast and to share your story, inspire others that, you know, they can do something similar. I think that's what's so cool is, you know, this podcast has created this amazing community of parents and professionals and educators. And, you know, we get emails like yours all the time. And it's just really cool for us to be able to kind of showcase this and hopefully inspire others to start doing this in their neck of the woods, to start creating community in addition to kind of the targets that we have for our kids and access to the AAC, you guys are doing a beautiful example of expanding well beyond that and creating real connection and community. And that's just really beautiful.
00:56:51 Nicole Young
The wrong horse.
00:56:55 Karina Carter
Well, thank you so much. Yeah, it's been a pleasure speaking with you and yeah, and thank you so much for letting us share our story and to share.
00:57:08 Rachel Madel
Yeah. Where if people are trying to get in touch with you guys, how can they do that?
00:57:14 Karina Carter
You can go and you can google www.childrenstheraplay.org and you can find information regarding what we do here. And then my email is kcarterildildildrenstheraplay.org dot.
00:57:30 Rachel Madel
Awesome.
00:57:33 Nicole Young
I will be at Indiana aac summit. I'm not presenting, but I'll be there. And I like to stay kind of private right now with dad until he is able to voice for himself that he wants to have his story public. We'll be waiting for that. But I also for a great program for families, there's arc of Indiana. They are big advocates and they are a great resource. That way there is a parent, there is a kind of a Facebook group for parents, but I'm not a moderator so it's not as active. So we can.
00:58:27 Karina Carter
Sorry.
00:58:30 Rachel Madel
If you share those resources with me, we can definitely add those to the show notes for people. And yeah, I'm just really excited to share this interview and thank you guys again so much for taking the time to come on today.
00:58:43 Karina Carter
Sure. Thank you.
00:58:44 Rachel Madel
Thank you for talking with tech. I'm Rachel Madel, joined today by Karina Carter and Nicole Young. Thank you guys so much for listening, and we'll talk to you now next week.