Episode 301: Aaron Marsters: Supporting Assistive Technology for Students on US Military Bases Across Europe

Trigger Warning: This week’s banter includes some descriptions of trauma. If you would prefer to only listen to this week’s interview, please skip ahead to 27:19.

This week, Chris interviews Aaron Marsters, an Assistive Technology Instructional Systems Specialist for Department of Defense Education Activity (DoDEA)! Aaron shares about his role supporting the assistive technology needs of students on military bases across Europe, in his case, particularly in Germany. He shares ideas about AI and AAC, ways they collaborate to share implementation across Europe, and how they have adopted the Specific Language System First approach on bases across Europe!

Before the interview, Rachel tells a heartbreaking story about one of her clients who is currently in a child psychiatric ward. Her client is an AAC User, and Rachel shares about how the child has been mistreated despite the family’s best efforts to help. Chris and Rachel share their collective worry for Rachel’s client and their desire for his treatment to improve.

Key Ideas this Week:

🔑 We need to look at how we can better educate staff at medical facilities where people can be detained, like psychiatric wards, on how to work with people with complex communication needs and how to better support the needs of autistic people. We need to have an approach of curiosity instead of fear when someone is a multi-modal communicator, especially if they have a history of aggressive or self-injurious behavior.

🔑 When a complex communicator arrives within Europe’s DoDEA schools on military bases, Aaron makes sure that there are licenses of LAMP:WFL and multiple licenses of AAC Language Lab for each student. Then, the AT and school teams look at what stage learner the AAC user is and they go over activities and lessons the school can use to support that student’s AAC and language development.

🔑 If Aaron’s AT team tries something for one school, they take what worked and share it out with everyone else within the DoDEA European schools. There is a central website where best practices and implementation strategies are shared for every European DoDEA school!

Transcript of the Episode

Please Note: This transcript was generated using speech recognition & AI tools; it may contain some grammatical and/or spelling errors.

00:00:08
Hey everyone, Before we begin this episode, we wanted to let you know that the banter that we talked about at the beginning of the episode between Rachel and I covers a topic of trauma and a student experiencing some trauma. So if that is something that you'd rather skip, we invite you to move about 20 minutes forward in the episode to get to the interview portion. If you would like to listen, you're of course invited to. That's why we put it out on the podcast. Or you can skip ahead.

00:00:34
We just wanted to let you know that it is a heavy topic at the beginning of this banter. Welcome to Talking With Tech. My name is Chris Bugaj, and as always, I'm here with Rachel Madel. Rachel, what's going on in your world?

00:00:55
Chris, I just came from a pretty heavy parent coaching session.

00:01:00
Coaching session that pretty heavy? I mean, that sounds exciting. I mean, coaching their parents sounds like a Why don't tell me What does heavy mean?

00:01:09
So I'm going to share, and I have permission to share. Actually, right at the end I was like, I'm about to go to a podcast recording, but I really want to talk about this. And this mom has been so awesome throughout. I've been working with this family for I guess seven years now. Long time and this mom has always been such a great showcasing of leading with sharing and she's always been really open to sharing her journey and sharing you know more public facing and I feel like it's such AI understand that not everybody feels comfortable with that and that's totally OK.

00:01:46
But for the families and the people that do, it just is so helpful to help people understand, you know, what's going on with their children, to help learn, to help, you know, feel connected, to feel not alone. Like there's just so many benefits to sharing. And so I just love this family and they've been so wonderful throughout my career and just leading with sharing.

00:02:10
Can I just interrupt here? I want to get to the story, but I just want to say I totally champion that notion on 2 fronts. One that I am so appreciative of the parents that do share either or not even on this podcast, just out into the ether, sharing your story. Really. Really, I think it might be the most powerful message for other families to hear.

00:02:31
And I was literally having that conversation with a speech therapist today where I was like, you can show them all the research and you can show them all the all the strategies from all the other therapists. It's hearing it from another family that's probably the most powerful, you know. So we have to do connections. But then the second thing is how rewarding it is when you do get to share because you have to think through your own thoughts and think through your own what do, what do I really think about this? What message do I want to say?

00:02:58
And just that process help solidify your own confidence and knowledge in your skills. So I just totally champion that whole notion. Please continue.

00:03:08
OK, yes, completely. So I like I said, I've had a long history with this family. This story is about their son, who is 13, autistic, non speaking, and an AAC user. And this student has been through a lot. They suffered abuse in their school district a couple of years ago and it was a whole kind of process, kind of uncovering that and they got out the other side of that.

00:03:41
But there's obviously some some repercussions that have happened since that incident and multiple incidences of abuse. And So what that's looks like has been a lot of behaviors and a lot of challenging behaviors, a lot of dysregulation, a lot of, you know, stress like this student is very stressed with new environments and new people. And and so that's kind of the, the background is this, this trauma that was experienced in childhood has now translated into just a lot of challenges with behavior that therefore challenges participating in school. And they've been through, you know, different schools that focus on behavior. And Long story short, the kind of this is all kind of come to a head in medications that they're trying.

00:04:40
And you know, some families have tried different medications. And I'm sure a lot of families who have, they understand how delicate a process this is when we're working with medications that can, you know, change moods and change, you know, your whole body and then on top of it, adding in, I don't have all of the communication skills always at my fingertips to be able to communicate what's happening in my body. I also don't necessarily have the interception skills to understand what's happening in my body. And so it's kind of this like cocktail of a situation that can just be really difficult to navigate. And so the student has been kind of, they've been trying different medications.

00:05:21
And there have been a lot of side effects of these medications to the point where it had gotten so extreme that they had to take the student to the hospital and the emergency room just because there were such severe behaviors and aggression that the family didn't know what to do. And this family is very experienced with behaviors and aggression just because of everything they've experienced. And so he eventually was admitted to a child psychiatric unit. He has been the his first stint there I think was 15 days in this child psychiatric unit And then they sent him home and you know they sent him home home prematurely because the medication still wasn't figured out. And then there was such extreme aggression and behaviors that they had to go back to the emergency room.

00:06:08
And he's now back in the child psychiatric unit. And all along I've been coaching this this mom on how can we help support communication in this environment. And you know when I got on Chris I was like you're like are you OK? And I'm like, I'm really not because to hear this mom's and I'm going to like get emotional. But to hear this mom's account of how her son is being treated in this hospital is just inhumane.

00:06:38
Like it's horrific. Like he's being restrained on a bed. He, you know, at one point was taking all of his clothes off and they just keep citing. Everything is non compliance. But, you know, mom goes and, like, gets one hour to visit with him.

00:06:51
And she touches his skin and she's like, he's hot. And of course, one of the side effects of this medication is, you know, dysregulation of body temperature. And so he's just trying to, like, cool down. You know, they're not using his AAC. His AAC isn't charged.

00:07:05
You know, they're, they're scared of them. They're scared to go into the room. So he's getting no social interaction. He's locked in the room. They put food and then they leave.

00:07:14
So he's like, off to, like, fend for himself. He doesn't have access to the bathroom. So he is like, you know, wetting himself and like taking his clothes off because they're soiled. I mean, it's just like to hear kind of how he has been treated in this situation has just been heartbreaking. It's just been really heartbreaking.

00:07:37
And, you know, I can only imagine how heartbreaking that must be to a parent who is witnessing this and has no real control over what's happening and can't be there. Like they're not allowed to be there. They have visitation rights for like an hour Max, 2 hours a day. And that's it. And so it's just like to have to, you know, hear this and to, like not be able to support and like help and train.

00:08:04
And it's just like it's so it's so challenging.

00:08:09
So the staff at this hospital is, they're not looking for support from anyone else. They're not they're not reaching out to being like, well, this kid clearly has a history and people have been working with him. What has worked and what has not worked? There's no, I mean the the the giant word that's jumping into my head right now from you telling the story is trauma informed practice, right. So it seems like this this hospital is not leaning into trauma informed practice they're not trying to do well, I don't know what they they are or not are are not doing but it doesn't seem like they're corresponding with you at all.

00:08:44
Who could inform them about what to do or what not to do?

00:08:47
And like this mom, this mom has gone above and beyond. I mean, she has, you know, posted signs saying like, please have his AAC charged and with him so he can communicate, You know, here's exactly what to say when you need him to get dressed, when you need him to, you know, give his hand for, you know, the blood pressure, you know, all the things she's gone above and beyond. And it's just like they're not. They're not even taking his vitals.

00:09:15
Can I? I need. I need to ask a clarifying question. If it's okay and maybe you can't answer this, or maybe you can. Can the mom just pull him out?

00:09:23
I don't understand why.

00:09:24
Yes, but here's the catch 22. Chris is that his, the levels of medications he's on and the tinkering around with the medications has has transformed him so outside of his normal disposition that he's having such serious self injurious behaviors that it's like, I mean he's banging his head on the wall to the point where it's bleeding Like it's just like so they need to manage this medication because the managing of the medication is what's going to help get him in a place where he's not having all these extreme psychiatric side effects of these psychiatric medications. And she like the parents just feel stuck because they're like we can't. They already tried to take him home. They had him home for 10 days and it was so extreme and so.

00:10:10
That's how he ended back.

00:10:11
Right. And so they had to go back to the hospital and they had to kind of get back in because that was exactly my thought was like just take him out. But it's like to the point where now it's just this like cocktail of medications. And in order to give him the medications, they have to sedate him and give him like basically tranquilizers because they're just like, but but not because he couldn't take medications orally, but because they're not taking the time and energy to actually, like be with him, to tell him what's happening. So every time, of course, they go in with these needles and he can't communicate and he doesn't know what's happening.

00:10:47
Like he gets fight or flight. And yeah, I'm sure he tries to get aggressive because he doesn't understand what's going on.

00:10:54
It sounds like a horrible cycle, meaning that let's say the medications they do, let's presume that they get the cocktail right to the medications right. And he does start to regulate and then he doesn't have a way to communicate. So like it just in the instance where he's starting to feel hot, so he starts to take off his clothes and they say, oh, something else is wrong. So now we go in and we the actions that we're taking just regulate him again as he's regulating and therefore maybe the Medican medications were not working and so we need to make another adjustment. And so it's just this cycle, is there any chance of pulling the team together to talk about that?

00:11:37
Well, yes, I think there is at some level but the problem is in in in hospitals it's like this constant turnover of nurses and like so it's just like hard you know when you have nurses doing shift work to come in. And But yes, I mean I think that the the family has been really pushing for that and they have had some team meetings. But it's just like I think at the end of the day people don't understand how to support communication, they don't understand AAC, they don't understand non verbal communication and they're just kind of looking at everything as extreme behavior, non compliance. And it's just this vicious cycle where you know he, he's stuck and he can't communicate what's going on or how he feels or what he needs. And because of that, they just are basically isolating him socially.

00:12:30
Not even they're not even able to go in and take his vitals. Doesn't that feel like an important piece of monitoring medication changes is like vital signs. And so then the mom comes in and it's like, here's how you do it. She like brought her at home stuff like showing them. Exactly.

00:12:45
Here's what I say to him, here's how we do it. And so, but they they just, I think are afraid of him and they just go in with tranquilizers to get the medication in and they're just not taking the time. I think just because they think, well, he's just like super severe behavior, aggression and I don't know.

00:13:08
Do you know what's happening in the times in between? Meaning the time, It sounds like there's these moments where they go in and check on him, and then there's moments, you know, where they're kind of waiting for the medication to take effect. And I'm just wondering about like the hours in between those moments. Like if I think about a hospital, I think, you know, you go to the hospital and you lay in bed and you watch TV and that's what you do in the hospital. And that's why a lot of people like want to get out of there because it's not a very stimulating place.

00:13:38
Do you have a sense of any sort of education, entertainment, something that would occupy his time? Because that also seems to be a very, but at least the way you're sort of painting the picture is like I I was totally picturing like him in a room by himself, maybe with a bed and I don't know, maybe that's it, you know, that's what I'm sort of sounds like.

00:14:01
I mean, that's that's exactly right. Like, it's basically like solitary confinement. Like he's just like no one's engaging with him socially at all because they're afraid of him. And so it's just like the only social interaction he gets is the one hour a day that his parents can come visit him. And yeah, so I'm sure it's just like nerve wracking being in there and not having access to anything, just sitting in a room like.

00:14:30
And he has his AAC, but his AAC isn't always charged. And it's just like, it's also heartbreaking because mom has gone in and seen like what he's been communicating with, like the log. And he doesn't always use the message window. So it doesn't track always, which is it was such an aha moment for me. I was like, I need to teach my kids how to use the message window because, like in situations like this, thank God we have the ability to see what he's been communicating.

00:14:56
And it's just like, I'm thirsty, I'm thirsty, I'm thirsty. I want mom. I want mom. I want home. I want home.

00:15:02
Like, it's just like he is communicating with his AAC, but if he's in there by himself, no one hears it. Like, no one's picking up on the communication that's happening, you know?

00:15:16
I'm so sorry that I'm in like solvent mode now. Do you know? So I I I apologize for that as opposed to just like listening mode. But can I ask, is there any chance that something that struck me, as you said, people are not informed in how to do this, like communication. And I thought maybe these people are not informed.

00:15:38
Is there any chance that there's a different hospital that he could go to where they have more knowledge? We've had people on our podcast that we've talked to, that work in the hospital that get communication, right. So, I mean, what I'm thinking of works in New York, right? So. And you're in Los Angeles, so.

00:15:55
But it makes me think there's probably someone in a different Los Angeles hospital that gets it, you know what I mean? Or a different hospital altogether that gets it that I know trying to ferret those out find those. But it's I mean you work in Los Angeles you might know the area or people listening might like are there other options of places that could be that that that that they could take the this child to.

00:16:19
It's a good question and I haven't asked that question. I do know this is one of the most prestigious, reputable facilities and child psychiatric units, which is just.

00:16:30
How did they get that notion? How did they get that moniker of being reputable when this is happening?

00:16:36
I know, I know. I think that this is like, well, you don't hear about, you know, like this is the kinds of things that you're just like. Unfortunately, you don't know about it until you have to know about it. And then it's just like, wow, like, I can't. Like every time I talk to this mom, I'm just like in shock of like how it's like not even like they're not even using common sense, like just like basic stuff, you know?

00:16:59
But part of the reason I wanted to talk about on the podcast was because, I mean, if this story doesn't showcase the need to teach self advocacy and to teach, you know, all of these things that we hope that kids never have to be in a situation where they can, they have to communicate it. But to know that if they are, that they have the language in their AAC and the ability to do that, it's just like it's it's the one of the most, one of the most important things that we can do.

00:17:31
Well, and you did that right. Clearly he's saying I'm thirsty. I want to go home. I want my mom. He's communicating exactly what he wants and what he needs.

00:17:41
So we gave him that. It's now on the rest of society to actually listen to what is being communicated. It's frustrating and hard and I'm sure everyone listening is also in solution mode. I have a feeling we're going to get a lot of comments on this. What if we did that?

00:17:57
What if we did this? And and and parents reaching out to that, parents saying throwing the virtual hugs, you know, like how we feel for this, this situation because this feels like a time for the community to come together and say hospitals, what are you doing? You know, just this, this is maybe a little bit of a stretch in this situation, but just recently on the quiet listserv, a quality indicators for assistive technology listserv, which is a for new listeners who haven't heard of that strategy, that place before. It's just a listener you can go sign up and it's all people that work in assistive technology have signed up there, many have signed up there. You post a question and then the hive mind goes in and gives you strategies and suggestions.

00:18:42
Somebody posted in there just recently, like maybe a day or two ago, there's a neuroscientist that one of my clients went to and said that speaking that using AAC will stop you from speaking. And the parents are thinking, believing this neuroscientist, what research do we have? And then the community launched into it. There's these long bunch of tech but here's this research, this was research, this, this, this, this. They mentioned our podcast cuz we just talked about it with the consensus app.

00:19:11
Chris and Rachel just talked about it. I'm talking with tech used that episode right. So this whole barrage of strategies, how do we get the word out to hospitals and doctors and nurses? It feels like it's time community, It's time as well, past the time so that nobody has to be put in this position ever again.

00:19:30
I feel like I need to have this mom come on the podcast. I feel like I need to because I'm obviously just recounting the story that she shared with me. But I mean, this whole journey I feel like should be showcased. And yeah, like, it's just not OK. And so how do we change it?

00:19:44
Like, what do we do? Like, how do we inform medical providers about this? Just because it's just. I feel like it's the perfect demonstration of how misunderstood non speaking individuals, you know, particularly autistic individuals are. Like it's just so misunderstood and so it's just we need to come together as a community and just do better for this population.

00:20:14
And I think it starts with just. Building awareness around what does it look like to be non speaking like all about, you know, neurodiversity and all of these things I think are a step in the right direction. But I think just, yeah, I think I'm gonna ask the mom on the podcast. I feel like it would be a really powerful episode and she obviously has learned a lot in, you know, her experience and I think that listening to that and also, you know, helping to guide other families who might be in similar situations would be really powerful.

00:20:48
Yes, I think we should invite her on the podcast. I feel like I want to do something immediately, you know, because it seems like this kid is that the trauma that he, that this child has already experienced and now is, and it's not in, in this case, it doesn't seem intentional. It's like it's definitely, we think we're doing the right thing by doing this. It's this unintentional trauma that is being that this child is experiencing and it seems desperate like.

00:21:23
Totally. No, I mean exactly. I just, I mean, I feel like my hands are tied, which I think is the worst feeling to feel and imagine the family, you know, imagine this family how they just feel helpless. They're just kind of like, OK, we just have to keep him in this environment because we don't want him to get even more injured and even more hurt physically, you know? But it's just, yeah, the medication dance is so hard.

00:21:50
Like, I've had so many families kind of going on different medications and off them and tinkering around. And it's just like, it's so challenging to kind of find the right dosing and to find something that works. And so, yeah, it's just like all these confounding factors just make it really, really hard.

00:22:08
The last thing I maybe, I don't know if it's the last thing or not, but something I want to say too is I wish the entire world could adopt the concept of what's the least dangerous assumption. If the nurses came in and said, OK, what's the least dangerous assumption for this kid? They'd be thinking, hmm, all right, he's taking off his clothes. He's not protesting. He's not.

00:22:29
I don't know what he's doing, but I'm going to make the assumption he's not protesting. I'm going to make the assumption that he's hot, because that's why he's taking off his clothes, right? And then if I had, if I came in with that notion, what's least dangerous? What's what's, what assumption am I making? I'm going to assume that he's doing that intentionally for an actual reason.

00:22:49
Then maybe I might be asking or thinking my actions might change, right? I might be thinking, OK, why do I take off my clothes? I take off a jacket when I'm hot, I put on a jacket when I'm cold. So maybe that's what's happening. That should be my first thought.

00:23:02
Not he's being non compliant in some way. And if we could just get that, just that simple notion of what mindset are you coming into the situation with that could move the needle in a big way.

00:23:16
Exactly what you're explaining, Chris, is coming in with curiosity, like coming in curious about why students are doing the things that they're doing and trying to get to the bottom of it instead of assuming that you understand everything that's happening in front of your eyes. And you know, obviously the least dangerous assumption comes in here. It's a dangerous assumption to just assume that kids are being non compliant or behavioral or aggressive or whatever. Like human beings. Like, you know, there's a reason, there's a reason that we see these things.

00:23:55
It's not, you know, it's not just random and it's not just because most of the kids that I've worked with in my career have wanted to connect socially, have wanted to, you know, do the right thing. And if that's not happening, then there's a reason underneath it. And it's like I feel like they're really good educators and clinicians are the ones that are just curious to get to the bottom of what's going on, you know?

00:24:22
Curious with the leaning towards, there's something up, it's not intentional, right? There's something that's causing this. I'm sure the nurses probably don't know the entire breadth of the back story here that this student has trauma in the past that is informing, influencing this student's actions now, you know, so, but what assumption do you make when you go into that room? So, OK, now I'm like, I can see I'm feeling it in my chest, like, right. So if if if Melissa came in right now, she'd be like, why are you so upset?

00:25:01
Why is your face off last year? It's like because Rachel just told the story and we want to do something about it right now, you know?

00:25:09
Well, I think what we can do, Chris, is I think we can have her on the podcast and I think that we can have her share her story. And I think that, you know, our community is going to embrace her with loving arms and lots of support and potentially some ideas. And you know, maybe there's something that we don't know that's already out there, somebody who's already doing this work or has done it in the past in their local hospital or facility or whatever. So I think that that's the move that we can have her come on and share her experience and then, I don't know, maybe we can come together and and help figure something out.

00:25:44
And maybe we can do some sort of education for nurses and doctors specifically. I know like we said, we've had people on the podcast talk about that and and maybe there's some more, I mean not maybe it clearly there needs to be more work done in that area. So maybe that's some other things we can do, is think about what else we can do to support hospitals. Because on this podcast we talked mostly about, you know, schools and families at home, but there's certainly the larger community out there that we can inform. So share this podcast with your nurses, with your doctors.

00:26:17
Let them know that that there's a lot of work to be done and to make the least dangerous, make the least dangerous assumption.

00:26:26
Absolutely, Chris, what's our interview today?

00:26:29
Well, the interview today is from someone named Aaron Marsters. And Aaron works in a for the Department of Defense, actually in the United States. But he's not in the United States. He's in Germany. And he and I have known each other for many, many years.

00:26:44
So it's an interesting take. Again, we're talking about the struggle that we're having here, right? Those same struggles are happening all over the world. And and Aaron talks about his work in trying to support people living overseas on, in his case, Germany, living on Army bases and teaching them all about assistive technology and AEC and all the rest. So we talk all about both assistive technology and AAC for the Department of Defense over in Germany, Welcome.

00:27:26
To the Talking With Tech podcast. My name is Chris Pouget and today I'm here with Aaron Marsters. Aaron, how's it going?

00:27:33
Doing great. How are you doing?

00:27:34
Great, great. So let me do a quick introduction and then you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do. So Aaron, here's my general feeling about your relationship with me and my relationship with you, right. You and I have known each other. We've been for many, many years now.

00:27:50
I think at some point maybe you came up after a presentation and introduced yourself at maybe an ATIA. And we have floated, orbited each other in in in our circles and often have had conversations like after a session or in the hallways of ATIA. We're like, oh, that guy. We're at an Ed camp like that guy. Yeah, we are so like on the same page, we should spend more time together.

00:28:16
And then maybe it's a few minute conversation as we're like I said in the hallway or at like sometimes there's a restaurant or a bar at ATIA and we might like talk for a few minutes in there, but then get pulled away. And I just was reflecting on him when we scheduled this interview. And it was like, I don't know that I've spent more than 10 minutes talking to Aaron in any given stretch, you know? So first let me ask, is that fair? Do you feel like that's the same thing with me?

00:28:44
And then let's fix it. Let's have this conversation today.

00:28:47
No, you, you nailed it, Chris. Yeah, you. We've always been around in the same circles. And and I do have to say, when I first started in my role as an assistive tech professional, it was your work that was all that often through your books or through your original podcast that where you were kind of like my guiding voice. And we'll go over that in a minute.

00:29:06
But you know, I do work for Department of Defense schools education activity. And so the one reason why we don't talk very much is I live in Germany, you know, so I do support U.S. military connected families overseas. And we with Dodea, we have nearly, we have over 160 schools across 3 continents. And so my responsibility is I, I support about 25,000 students here in Europe and I primarily support students in Germany.

00:29:36
And so I'm, I'm housed and based out of Germany. And where where we might see each other is an ATIA closing the gap or just one of those few opportunities where I get back to the States to kind of fill up my bucket with a lot of professional learning?

00:29:50
Well, that is exactly one of the reasons that I when we were at you were chatting, it was like, oh, you got to come on the podcast because it is a very unique position. So let's start with what's your background? Tell us a little bit about, you know, who you are and how you got into this, and then how you ended up in this particular role.

00:30:09
OK, great. So way back when, when I was just undergrad going to school for elementary and special education, there was a student teaching program. Shout out to Northern Arizona University and they said hey, you can go to Europe and you can student teach. And so I thought, I'm going to backpack around Europe, I'm going to student teach. It's going to be a wonderful experience.

00:30:29
And it was my student taught here in Germany at a Dodea school. It was terrific. I taught first grade and then I taught special education at a high school. And then I went back to the States to teach and severe and profound for a couple years. In the meantime, met my wife.

00:30:43
We got married. She was a military brat. We both knew about, you know, living life overseas. And we said, you know, let's throw our hat in the ring, let's see where this takes us. And so we we end up applying, we get accepted.

00:30:55
We end up moving to the northern part of Japan, Masala, Japan, a big Air Force Base up there. And I'm teaching elementary special education. My wife's a first grade teacher. It's getting tons of snow. We're snowboarding on the week, weekends.

00:31:09
We don't have kids. It's just this big grand adventure. And so we spent two years over there and then we ended up transferring to Europe, to Germany, and we went on for about six or seven years. We were kind of on this closing base tour of Germany where all these bases at that time, we're downsizing. So every two years we were skipping around.

00:31:29
And so I taught general education elementary. I taught special education at the elementary school middle school like I was just jumping around from mild to moderate to moderate to severe just a just a mix of different experiences. And at the time I was working on my doctorate and with the assistive technology position came open and I applied and you know fortunately for me I was able to to get the position back in about 2010. And from then on, I have been the assistive technology instructional systems specialist for Dodea and with I said my focus is primarily Europe, but I have, I'm happy to take on roles that have been supporting AT initiatives across our whole agency.

00:32:11
What made you apply to the assistive technology position? I'm clearly in those positions. You're using technology, but there's a lot of teachers use technology. And then there's another tier that maybe say, oh, I want to go work in assistive technology.

00:32:25
I was always that guy. So you know my first job, I was severe, profound at a high school level in Flagstaff, AZ and all my students were using Augmentative Communication Alternate Access. I was collaborating with my O TS, my P TS. I set up an engineering. I had engineering interns coming in and doing project based learning for their capstone projects who were collaborating.

00:32:47
They were building stuff from my classroom. I just was always that guy that just loved the tech. I love the access that it provided my students. And it was just something that it just, it seemed to go hand in hand. And so I went from that to then going to Japan and teaching, you know, little kids how to read.

00:33:04
But again, then it shifted to access to to like reading. How do we access books? How do we improve reading? How do we improve writing? And so I was always integrating that those technology pieces as part of Ed tech and then assistive tech.

00:33:17
And then for good or bad, I was always jumping around general Ed for a couple years, which really get got me deep into Ed tech, which I then thought I felt held my street cred and my credibility when I went back into special education and vice versa. So I've always been walking this world of Ed tech and assistive tech and it just when I was working on my doctorate, I had a professor come up to me and say, you know, this is really your passion, this is your area. I I really feel this is your area of research and this is your area of focus. And so I ran with it. I ran with it through my dissertation, I ran with it through my studies.

00:33:50
And I just kind of embraced this idea that it's I'm, I'm the AT guy, I'm the I'm the tech guy.

00:33:57
So what is your doctorate in?

00:33:59
It is an education leadership, special education leadership. But because the University of Maryland, I was able to really focus in on what is it that I want to study, what is it that I want to research. And so every project that I had was always related to assistive tech. I always was was filtering it back to access. And then part of that with the Ed tech thing or with that with the Ed leadership component is I've always been looking as the assistive technology role, especially within DODEA as you know, capacity building.

00:34:29
What can I do as a leader? You know, I see myself part service provider as I'm, I'm working with students, I'm working with educators. But I also see myself as what am I doing to build the capacity of the agency to broadly meet the needs of students through UDL to assistive tech through accessible Ed tech. You know, just how do I make that happen? Yeah.

00:34:50
All right. So how do you make that happen? Can you So let's just for the acronym, what is DODEA?

00:34:57
The Department of Defense Education Activity.

00:35:00
OK. And so I'm going to try and think, I'm going to try and describe this and you tell me what I get right and what I get wrong. OK. So there are military bases from the United States all over the world, one in Germany. And there are people that go and work in those bases.

00:35:18
And those people have kids, and those kids need to learn. So they go to classes and schools that are.

00:35:27
On the bases.

00:35:28
Yeah. So let me paint, let me paint a picture. We have military bases overseas, Army bases, Air Force bases, naval bases. And within that base, it could be in Italy, it could be in Spain, it could be in Germany, the UK. There's your your McDonald's, there's your Taco Bell, there's your US school, there's your US little shopping mall area, there's your US facilities.

00:35:51
And there it's all designed to support the US military mission overseas. And so on those military bases, we're using U.S. dollars, we're using American credit cards, we're, you know, it's little America in the middle of a foreign country. You walk off the base and all of a sudden somebody speaking a foreign language, you're now switching over to a foreign currency. So.

00:36:12
So yes, we have the military members, our primary, you know stakeholders with their families and they are usually over for about 3 years at a time. So we have a highly mobile population that kind of rotates through every three years. And and so it's a we have a great, great communities with our military family members. We have terrific civilians that come over to to live and work overseas to support these families and it's just a really it's a it's a terrific organization and they we do a lot to support that the military mission so that the military members can do their job knowing that their families and their children are taken care of.

00:36:52
I have family members, particularly my wife, so I married into it. My, my wife has an uncle that has been in the military for years and did exactly what you said, three-year stints in different places. And so when you say there's this sort of a little almost picture like a small town if you will. So there's a school there and so the kids would go to school for those three years and when you maybe move to another location, they go for another three years and another location. Hence that term, Army brat that you said or military brat, right.

00:37:26
Like that, that term of your wife. So then I would imagine just like any other school, there's a population of kids that have disabilities and that's where you're coming in helping with the building, the, the, the inclusively designed experiences and you're supporting the teachers on those in those schools, just like I might be supporting teachers in a public school here in Virginia.

00:37:53
Exactly. We are still, you know, following I DEA, you know, we're still considering assistive technology for students. We're still looking augmentative communication. We're still looking at access. And so all these things are still in place.

00:38:06
Out of necessity. We had to go to a capacity building model because I am the assistive technology specialist for Germany, you know, so I have schools down in Bavaria. I have schools, you know, near France. So I have schools all over the place. I can't be the gatekeeper for assistive tech.

00:38:21
You know that I ever, not that I ever want to be the gatekeeper assistive tech. So I've always been working with how do we build up our teachers, our special educators, our general education teachers, our support staff, SLPS to be able to effectively consider and implement assistive technology at the lowest level. And I don't want to say lowest level at the most important level at the school level. And so and then of course if they need help support logistics, I'm always there. But I I am always looking at what are we doing to build up those educators and those SLPS and related support staff so they can do their jobs.

00:38:57
Awesome. All right. So let's talk about that. So because. So it sounds like very similar challenges is that time I work in a large geographical area and it's like how do we get all these teachers on the same page and I'm on board.

00:39:09
Sounds like you're wrestling with the same things. How many years have you been doing this now?

00:39:13
2010, So I kind of feel that was a fun time to enter the field of assistive technology formally because that was right around I was kind of think we were the start of a pendulum shift, you know where iPads were just coming out. And I still remember AAC was just a one off thing. Everybody's using paper communication boards, but core boards were still kind of a new thing. And this idea that the AAC was something that could be a systemic intervention for students was something that was still pretty abstract to people. And I still, I remember like you know even for our students with learning disabilities, software was that one off thing that was in the corner of a classroom.

00:39:50
It was very much. And then I want to say 2010, that pendulum really started shifting with the advent of mobile devices and then we started having more cloud based solutions and more robust opportunities online. And I feel like it was such a fun time to come on board because I could see it like when my first I reflect back on my first year as an AT specialist to now and I'm like, Oh my. My goodness, what? What a difference you know 1213 years have made.

00:40:19
I I could not agree more in the framework or using the language of tier 1-2 and three like at this multi tiered system of support. I think 2010 is great is a great way of thinking about how that's when the pendulum really started to to switch where people started to think, oh, Tier 3 stuff could become tier one stuff, you know, and and we can now that we know that that's sort of where we want to go, we can make that happen faster. We can push the triangle down from from all the stuff that's living only in Tier 3 down to Tier 1. So when you started working in this role, what sort of shifts in sort of actions did you take to support and and make that happen faster?

00:41:05
Well, fairly early on we tried to go to a specific language system approach. It just seemed to make a lot of sense to me that I wanted. I wanted AAC devices in the hands of students we had. I was able to get a lot of great access to iPads, you know, you know, initial AAC apps. But it was to me, it always came down to implementation.

00:41:28
I felt at the very beginning of my career I spent all my time on operational skills for any tech. It was like I could spend 3 days teaching a teacher how to just operate, operate or an SLP how to operate the thing. We never got to the fun stuff of implementation of the strategies of what it looks like. And again, I want to say that 2010 time frame is when I really felt like things started shifting where oh, I don't have, I can, I can teach you the operational competencies within 1/2 hour. Now let's get into the good stuff.

00:41:54
But I felt like everybody needed to be speaking the same language and because we didn't have a lot of access to AAC before overseas, because we have limited access to vendors, you know, people I'm moving around so much and you know and follow up with insurance. So I kind of felt like we were starting from a blank slate. And and so for me I was like OK, let's let's start putting. If we have a kid that had that has complex communication needs, has basic access act, you know, is able to access the device effectively, let's start just providing quality AAC, robust AAC and really focus on the implementation components. And if we're struggling then let's look at different options.

00:42:34
Or if a kid comes in with a different system, of course let's accept that different system. But from from an early stage it just to me it just made sense that I was hearing the teachers and SLP said going I can't learn five different languages. OK, well let's start out with what's become fluent in this one. And then as a cool side note as I've seen as the MI educate is the educators and SLPS have become more comfortable with our primary AAC you know system. They've been asking me like hey we want to try others now like I'm fluent in that one I'm ready cognitively and and you know to to like push myself and learn other languages and I'm not having to push it on them.

00:43:10
They're the ones seeking me outgoing. OK I want let's teach I'm ready to turn on that other language. I know German now give me French. I know AAC language one let me do AAC language too. So.

00:43:21
So it's been great.

00:43:22
That sounds so exciting. And that has been my consistent experience with with with me as well. Is that, oh, once I know how to do this well, now what's more? Give me more. Give me more.

00:43:31
Right. That's awesome. How did you decide on what your first system is going to be? And let me explain some people that I've talked to have said we we don't have anything. So we're going to pull A-Team together and we're going to do sort of a a mass feature matching experience where we we put up a chart and we figure it out about what we think is going to meet the most needs.

00:43:55
Other places have said, well we did a an inventory of what's being out there used already and this particular system came to the top. So he said, why by buck that trend? If that's working, then let's lean into this thing. How did it work for you?

00:44:12
So we start out early enough with the iPads that there there were a ton of options, but I would say there weren't a lot of robust options at the time and and so Pro Loco was the the top option at that time. And so that's what we went with. We bought a ton of licenses but then after a few years it seemed like we had some different robust AAC options that started coming up. And I and Chris to your point, we we then kind of did a feature match of what are what are people, what are other systems that are people you people using, what are effective, you know medical devices that are being out there. What where are we sending these kids if they're effective with this device, where do they go next to if we're going through insurance.

00:44:49
And so we started really looking at lamp words for life as as kind of our next and as core words really coming on board at that time. And then to be fair to Pro Loco, Pro Loco version one to where they are now is significantly different. I mean that they they've grown night and day but they were kind of in that growth stage. And so we we then kind of transition more to LAMP. And I would say that a good portion of Dodea is, is lamp literate as our tier one, but then there's still some pockets it because they grew up on on Pro Loco, they're using Pro Loco.

00:45:22
We're now kind of throwing touch Chad, into the, you know, our TVTD snap into the mix, you know is just as a, you know, making more robust options available. And I said as more as the staff are becoming more fluent in these options, you know, giving some agency to the SLPS and to the teachers to then, you know, find the language that they want to be fluent with. And then being responsive to the students and how they're interacting and responding and what kind of language samples and communication are we seeing from that quality implementation.

00:45:53
Aaron, let me ask a clarifying question here. You said earlier that it's you're the person for Germany, right? But then you're using the pronoun we like we decided. So is it? Did you pull a team?

00:46:06
Together how did how did you?

00:46:07
We there there are different AC specialists. We have about three or four of us within the agency. So that was the the core group and then we did you know pull different SL PS going to Atia and different things like that helped. So it wasn't a unilateral decision, but it but it really was trying to look at where do we want to go with this, what makes the most sense for us at that time and so so yeah, it's it's been a good And then for me and when I say we, I actually like it. So I'm not a licensed speech language pathologist.

00:46:39
I'm an educator by trade. So when we do AT reports or AAC evaluations, I have to have that school SLP on board with me. I have to have them writing that report with me. I have to have them signing that report with their C's if we're going to get any kind of funding for a device. And so I I have found that that is actually been really beneficial for me because people can't just push it off and say, oh, the AT guys here, the AAC guys here deal with it.

00:47:08
I'm going, no, I I need, I need this to be a team process. So awesome. Yeah.

00:47:16
So something that you also said, let me let me ask how you, well, I have multiple questions, but let's start. You got to get to the fun stuff with implementation, right. So now we've got a tier one tool. We got a system in place where if that tier one tool is not working or we know it's not going to work, I can work with the team of educators to help them figure out what something more specific and how to tweak something if need be. What is your professional learning look like to focus more on implementation as opposed to those operational skills?

00:47:49
So we've we've taken some systemic approaches of making things like AAC Language Lab available. So any any AAC user that that enters my enters our schools, I give the team at least one or two licenses of AAC Language Lab. We go through what stage do we think, what stage learner do we think this child is. Let's go over some of the activities, let's go over some of the lessons. I think the vendors, I'm really just amazed with how well the vendors have kind of shifted from operationals.

00:48:20
They still have the operational tutorials but it seems like every vendor now has their own you know, AAC implementation strategies and ideas and resources and so highlighting those as well. We do, you know we do some some modelling, you know we're we're really big into you know a aided language modelling. So providing some coaching with that, you know really trying to get the SLPS on board. We've had vendors come over, you know the lamp works for life. People have come over and done trainings for us here in Europe.

00:48:51
So just trying to build capacity as much as possible using online resources. And because I'm so spread out and because I'm looking at it at a kind of a systems level, I don't want to just buy or share resource of 1 educator or one SLP. If it's good for that team. I'm going OK, how can we build this to scale? How can I have this available for everyone.

00:49:13
And then we're trying to, we're still in growth, but you know using collaborative tools like say teams putting all of our, our SLPS and a team and preschool teachers into a team where they can chat, hey, let's share resources. What are some successes you're having? What are some problems you're having? And so somebody from the Pacific can be talking and collaborating with somebody from Europe and somebody from Europe can be talking to somebody. Or if I come up with a good data sheet or somebody else, we can post it in one location and it's there.

00:49:39
You know, also trying to put things together on a central web page where we're all using, you know, some the same information and the same resources and the same tutorial videos. Because I just, I hate recreating the wheel again. If it works, let's use it across the board.

00:49:54
Oh my gosh, can I come work with you? It sounds so awesome, right? I mean, everyone, the paint, the picture that you're painting is a is a very collaborative, professional experience where you can ask questions, share resources, maybe fail a little bit and get feedback on how to do better next time. It sounds really awesome. I mean, does that sound fair?

00:50:17
Is that what you feel like the most people? If we were interviewing a teacher right now, that's in that you think that's what they would say?

00:50:23
That's a dream. That's what I like most of them to say. Yeah. So I mean do we have, do we have difficult situations? Of course.

00:50:28
There's always, I mean, I think that's part of it. As you mentioned, we have to have room to fail. We have to have room to try it. But I'd rather fail forward and be able to analyse that and say, OK, what can we do differently? I don't want people to fail out of out of fear or out of just not knowing what to do.

00:50:43
OK, let's figure it out. Let's try. And we do have a fairly mobile staff and so just like our, our students that it seems. But I think that's education in general right now. You train up a teacher, you train up a team, you get a quality group, a pair of professionals, and everything's running smooth.

00:50:59
And then boom, it's all gone the next year and you're you're back at square one. So that's where it might look kind of rough for that, for the going back back a few steps. But if you have all those other supports in place, again, at least you're not starting from scratch and you can then make it make steps to move forward.

00:51:16
Aaron, that's actually where I wanted to go is one of the other questions I had is that before we were talking about how generally I I know there's variations, but I think there's variations, but that, you know, OK, you're in a three-year stint and then you think about where you're going to go for the next three years. Maybe you stay for another three years in the same location, but maybe not. Maybe you're moved to a different base. So that seems to me parallel like what we were you were just referencing is that I get to be in middle school, in a public school in America for three years and then boom, I move on to another whole new team of new people and they might not have the same level of knowledge, hence that or experience, hence that capacity building model. What has what have you found has been helpful in keeping the continuity of of learning language, the continuity of assistive technology, strategies related to edtech, all of it.

00:52:13
How do you provide a somewhat consistent continuity of education?

00:52:19
We've been working really hard on this and what I and I think it's a growth area for us and it's it's that continuity of resources. It's it's having a systems lens approach. So going back to just Ed tech and our high incidence disabilities, it's when we're buying curriculums, are we buying curriculums with built in accessibility features that's universal. We know teachers are expected to use approved curriculum. So with that are they are they using the stuff that's built in, are students using Chromebooks or Windows computers?

00:52:53
Are all our teachers aware of the accessibility options within those? You know, speech, everybody wants speech recognition, you know everybody wants text to speech. Well OK, let's show you how that works within the operating system making use of you of tools like read and write for Google, you know more cloud based solution. So when the built in accessibility features aren't working, do we have external tools that are systemic across our agency that can be used, Do we have consistent guidance on our AAC devices and you know are we gatekeeping or are we providing quality easy access to it? Then we're really working hard on that implementation using consistent resources or can teachers expect and can families and parents expect that these are kind of our first line interventions but if they come in with something completely different that's working for the kid, do we have clear expectations that we say to that family, great, it's a it's a pleasure to have you and your child here.

00:53:48
Let's learn about this AAC system and let's, let's find some success. So I I want to kind of go back to that original framework of what if it's good for one school, if it's one good for one program. How are we building up those resources so that it's available to everyone?

00:54:04
Awesome. Oh, man, Aaron. Yes. So again, this sounds so much like in my mind, we're talking to you in our shoulder conversations at Atia and I. I knew we had similar outlooks and similar approaches to how we build capacity.

00:54:21
But I sort of also created a fiction in my head that Dodea has got to be so different, radically different than public schools every year in Germany. I'm in Virginia, but it really sounds super similar.

00:54:34
You know we have you know so we're very fortunate with a lot of we have great edtech, we have a lot of access to to terrific resources. But some of our, you know the struggles that we have as a federal agency, you know we're we're a military base. We're on a military network. So you think about you know think about working with IT on security and they're all about enterprise solutions. And so that's one reason why I do try to have enterprise solutions for accessibility because they really it's a challenge to have one off options for kids because as a is a federal agency working in a very secure environment saying I want to be able to access this website and this this thing and that thing and that thing they'll do it.

00:55:14
But it takes a lot it's a lot of hurdles you know so, so how do we. And then if I spend all my time doing those one offs and I don't have any fun, I don't have any time for the fun stuff. So I try to build up as much as possible buying things over here and then having it shipped across slow boat across the Atlantic. So you know, we had a part on a wheel chair break, the wheelchairs only sold in the US Oh goodness, that's a that's a two-month process to get, you know, to get something shipped over here. So we do have some hurdles, but then we also have some amazing opportunities and that you know, you the kids for spring break are all talking about going down to Italy or you know going on a cruise across the down the Med or you know they're going to London and Paris and all these places.

00:55:58
So you know, every there's not a perfect place and we definitely have our challenges. But I also feel very bled less to have the experiences of living overseas and supporting the our our military, connected families.

00:56:11
Aaron, so one of the last questions I like to ask in interviews is what has been, what have you been questing after, what's got, what's picking your curiosity bone, you know, you know very curious professionally, clearly with working on your doctorate and and and interested in many things. What's got what's What's tickling your fancy currently?

00:56:32
Well Chris, artificial intelligence my my brain is just swimming and possibilities. I kind of feel like again I remember the first time I ever got on the Internet. You know I remember the first time holding a tablet and I kind of feel like we're we're at that that inflection point right now where oh where were you the first time you did something with generative AI or you know and and that's that's where my brain is right now. And I'm really thinking that about the lens of of AAC specifically because I just see the potential for it to be a a rate enhancer for you know. So I'm looking at like ChatGPT or these large language models is a translator for AAC.

00:57:13
And so I've even played around with some of the prompts of OK, you are an AAC device and I speak only in core words. I'm going to give you a scale of context from friendly to serious and from take no liberties. Don't add any words to my message to to a scale of like one to five, five. Take extreme liberties and add and add as much as you want. So things like want play or I like or eat now or Cool Cool Hat, you know, depending on whatever I say with the core words and then translates it into to to different messages based off of that sliding scale.

00:57:52
So you can have it. You change it on the the tone of the message and the complexity of the message based off of what you want. I think there's some cool things there.

00:58:04
Yeah. Have you shown it to anybody? Have you tried?

00:58:05
No, I'm still, I'm still well, well, that's the thing with ChatGPT. And a lot of the AI stuff is it's a great educator tool. But with the age limits and with some of the privacy concerns, you know, we need some adults or we need some families that are willing to kind of pioneer it. Because at the at the school level following you know some of the some of these rules, we're we're limited in how we need some researchers out there or we need some of these AT vendors to, you know put it on the back end where where we can then vet to the privacy and the security of some of these tools and how that information is going to be used. I was just playing with the Cool AI App AI feature the other day where it turns on, you know, like a smart speaker.

00:58:49
It listens to you and then it's it creates awesome notes. It summarizes everything that was said. It gives you highlighted notes. Well what if what if on your AAC device it listened to the responses and then it under like a quick fire. It gave you potential options for responses.

00:59:06
I'd never want to go away from core words and fringe and be able to have a unique generative language specifically to what somebody wants to say. But I love the idea of having the freedom or the agency for an individual to go, Yep, that's what I want. Or or to kind of have some sort of more scale to make, you know to increase that efficiency?

00:59:27
Yeah, I mean, Aaron, what you're talking about I think is the future. And when I say the future like a year from now, you know, like the immediate future. Because for those that haven't played with ChatGPT yet, let me just explain. I use it on the daily like I have to write a paragraph or create something. I will go and write the prompt, take that, it'll create that paragraph for me and then I'll edit the heck out of it to make it sound like Chris Bouguet.

00:59:54
So yes, did it. It generated and I added to it. And I hear that's sort of what you're suggesting is a possibility for AAC users is look it it give me something to start with. I'm going to maybe tweak it or not. Like maybe like close enough.

01:00:09
Yeah, that's what that's what I would say. In the same way that you're writing an e-mail and at the bottom of the e-mail or or someone sends you an e-mail and it, Google Now will suggest like quick fire phrases that you can respond one click. Yep, thank you. That's what I wanted. Or, you know, they'll give you 3 suggestions.

01:00:26
That sort of idea on a on a greater scale.

01:00:29
And so on with ChatGPT. Now you can go into kind of your profile and and so you can set it up as I'm an AT professional who loves Ed tech and working with students and families and educators. You know I believe in gracious professionalism. You kind of describe who you are and what your what your values are and then it will adjust its responses based you. So I'm thinking back to AAC.

01:00:52
What if we spend more time with creating the students profile? Oh, he loves Star Wars, he's into Legos and his favorite food is this, this you know like if if you're able to develop a profile within that AAC app, so then when it is making those generative suggestions it's it's pulling that data from from that profile so that hopefully it's more customized to that user. And again, I'm not saying that this replaces our, our core and our fringe and our ability to say what we want in our own words. But I want to, I want to, I want to see what happens when we give people options. And and I want users, you know, AAC users to be to be able to chime in and say, you know, that was a horrible idea.

01:01:38
Aaron. Nope. Or or yeah, yeah, this, this looks like this could be something that works. I just feel like there's so much potential there. And like you said, Chris, within a year, I just feel like we're on the brink of just some really interesting innovations in the field of education, assistive technology, edtech technology in general with all the AI.

01:02:00
Yeah. And like you said on the back end of some AAC company or maybe some new company that works in the AAC space that takes a large language model and keeps it in a safe bubble, if you will, that's not touching other things. So you it's always pulling from this bubble of words, a picture, a cloud of of of words, millions of words and it's pulling from this. But it that it's that, it's just the bubble, it's not touching other things and nothing else is touching it. So we don't have to worry about the data privacy.

01:02:31
We don't have to worry about it being corrupted by somebody else or a negative influence, like you said, trained on who I am and what I wanted to do. It feels like that's really we're really close to that, like we're a sliver away from it.

01:02:47
Yeah, I I agree. And I think the only other thing I'd say to that is just that social acceptance component of if if people are starting to use more of those generative features to compose messages. Are people still valuing that what what that person is saying or or no that was just that was just ChatGPT telling me that or are they going to look at it and say no that was Aaron telling me that. And so I think you know we we need to I think there's there's a lot of things that have to be unpacked to make this successful. But I'm I'm looking forward to being part of that process to do it, you know?

01:03:18
Yeah, Aaron, it's such an interesting question. I'm currently on a committee where we're trying to generate the language to help educators figure out what to do with generative AI. And there's this sort of ethical question, right? Like, all right, clearly something we've said for a billion years and it's not going to change is cite your work, right. So did I use generative AI to create this thing?

01:03:42
Yes. Let me put that in the citations of whatever I'm creating. Right. But there's this other side. It is.

01:03:48
Well, if it's helped me create something and now you have the same, Do I have to tell you I cooked with the stove? Like, do I have to tell you that I drove here in a car? Like, why do I have to disclose? Why have to be transparent about that? It's sort of just maybe assumption now that I would be using it.

01:04:05
And does it really matter? I'm the one who's deciding to share it with you, not how it's generated. Maybe doesn't matter. So it's an interesting time to be wrestling with those questions.

01:04:16
It is. It is. It's exciting and I just I I feel like we're on the verge of some of some big shifts in education and assistive tech and access and and I'm hoping that the the end result is we're going to have more individuals having increased access and you know people motivated to do things. You're going to have the ability to do those things with all these new and amazing tools.

01:04:37
Well, Aaron, I'm going to say it's that it's, it's people like you doing the work to make sure that that happens, that that will make that outcome become a reality. Because something that I'm nervous about when it comes to generative AI is that it'll go the way of mobile technologies. I don't know when it comes to learning, when it comes to schooling, let me not say we definitely use mobile technologies for learning all the time. Anyone who has a mobile device uses it for learning all the time. When it comes to school, many of those devices are especially middle school and high school come into this room, put it into jail.

01:05:19
You're not. It goes in A in a in a thing on the wall that was meant for little toy cars and now it's a cell phone jail. And we've made the decision not globally but many places that's sort of the trend is put that thing away and I want us to use that lesson and to where do we live. Where we live now are people not sure how to use that device. So I want to make sure that we're doing the work to make the outcome become something that that learns from the mistakes of how we approached mobile technology.

01:05:53
Is that fair?

01:05:55
Yes, I think that's fair. And I think we've been grappling with that like you said for years of it's that whole mentality. Do you prevent access to what do you use to lock down browsers and do you stop people from accessing it? Or do you try to empower and educate and and come up with more inclusive activities that can capture you know instead of rote, you know rote production you know using more creativity and it's you know more explaining your thinking. And I I do think there's, I think there's some growth there and I think it is going to be a struggle and it is a challenge.

01:06:28
OK. How do we, how do we best leverage this to our students benefit. But to your point of if we lock it away when they go home it's unlocked. And when they enter the workforce, it's unlocked. And if we don't help our students and our you learn how to use these tools effectively, then I feel that we're doing them a disservice in the long run.

01:06:49
I couldn't agree more, I feel so well said. Besides the AAC and using generative AI for the AAC, what other applications have you been experimenting with or thinking about in the greater world of assistive technology?

01:07:04
Well, I so I'm going to jump, I'm going to keep in the AI but move away from the gender to the AI and really think that text to speech, speech recognition, all those are becoming increasingly improved. You know we're starting to get more speech samples from individuals with non standard, you know, phrasing and prose and you know dictation, articulation. And so I think it's becoming more accurate, less training our text to speech, voices are becoming more natural our ability. This idea that I can take notes by turning on the microphone and it's going to summarize and highlight and help me. So individuals with ADHD find motor issues like I really I really see that as as being powerful.

01:07:50
The AI is doing much better with eye tracking. Like I feel like we're on the verge with camera eye tracking or you know we're I I don't think it's going to be too long before that's just going to be a built in feature of within a lot of devices for access or for helping US improve apps on like where are people getting hung up and tracking where people's get putting their their gaze and then how can we use that information to then improve that design of that program or to provide some remediation or compensatory support. So you know and then you know ultimately down the line we're we're looking at different brain interfaces. You know there's some really cool stuff going on now where it just seems like the AI is taking some of the good things we've already had. But if that's been moving at a fairly snail's pace or it hasn't been accurate enough to be very realistic in in day, day in and day out situations and it's making it work better, work faster and where it's improving at such incremental gains that it might not be ready now, but let's check back in a year and see where they're at.

01:08:56
Yeah. Oh, it's so exciting, so exciting. How can I say one other thing that I think he could be used for, both in AAC and beyond, it is providing feedback. So imagine having someone's permission to record what they're saying on their AAC device, right? Or record what they're saying and it's transcribed, right?

01:09:18
Taking that language, bringing it into a generative AI tool and say analyze this for me. What's missing? What words am I saying most frequently? What goals would you set for me that I can improve on? Right.

01:09:30
And it it giving you those suggestions? We are. We're we're there.

01:09:34
I think we could do that now you'd have to manually type in like if I'm doing a language sample of a student and I have like this is everything that was said for that student in that hour. And then I could even have this is the language sample what was modeled to him? I believe right now if we're to play around with that and throw it into ChatGPT and with the right prompt and the and the right queuing, I think we could get some pretty useful data out of that.

01:09:55
Agreed. And insights. And and an action plan. Like here's, here's your next steps, right. Yeah.

01:10:01
So exciting. That's so exciting. I know. I'm currently working with a teacher of the deaf and hard of hearing who's using live captioning when he's doing his instruction. We're just having emails right now going back and forth.

01:10:14
By the time this episode comes out, we'll have figured out how to actually do it. But to take his instruction, record the transcription, get the notes that you're talking about, put it over here. Summer on this and provide that as a study guide to to not just the one person he's doing the instruction with but everyone out. Like hey, I can put this up online. Anyone can go get it.

01:10:36
So, so much potential here Aaron. Any other final thoughts. Other people, other things people should know, Misconceptions we should break down what it What do you want the world to know about the work you're doing and the work that you're supporting?

01:10:50
Just I think all I'm going to throw it out there always thinks with the systems level approach if if you're doing great work and and I know the people on the podcast are doing working hard and if they're doing something that's exceptional my old my question is always how do we grow that OK if that if what what can we do to take whatever you're doing that's awesome and expand that what is the force multiplier. What is the gracious professionalism that we can use to share that across the AT world and and build build all our capacities so that we can help individuals with disabilities. I mean that's that for me is the the main goal and I've loved working in this community the AT professional community because we are so gracious with things we do want to share we want to collaborate we we don't want to you know keep everything behind proprietary walls. We we just want to help individuals and we have great communities to do that.

01:11:45
Awesome. I'll drop the mic, Aaron.

01:11:49
Thanks Chris, this has been fun.

01:11:51
Thanks for thanks coming on the Dogma Tech Podcast. We'll talk to you later.